Camber Arms for DC2R

[VTECMACHINE]

But that's what it is. People say this and that, by what they have heard. Not saying you, but some people say things because they have heard it. Not because they have trialed it. End of the day it a Theory... You need to try out different things for yourself.

[tinkerbell]

Do you understand why it would understeer though?

no, i dont.

every theory i know says larger rear sway bar increase tendency to understeer...

every theory i know says less camber on the rear will increase tendency to understeer.

[tinkerbell]

But that's what it is. People say this and that, by what they have heard. Not saying you, but some people say things because they have heard it. Not because they have trialed it. End of the day it a Theory... You need to try out different things for yourself.

no shit.

let me tell you a story:

i won the NSW supersprint championship last year, in class 3B - prior to which i *trialed* many things to improve my speed around a race track.

during testing - it was VERY OBVIOUS that any increase in the rear swaybar rate (by adjusting it to "harder") would make the car oversteer more and generally be more agressive....

pretty good correlation with the theory.

EDIT:

the only reason i am picking this up is that apparition has asked for advice on camber... your advice is quite specific to your individual situation and the effects you are describing are probably due more to "other factors" than the ones you indicate that they are due to...

[05dc5S]

thicker rear sway = less body roll in the rear = less weight transfer in the rear when turning = possible understeer?

i.e. the rear is more "stuck" to the ground provided the tyres haven't reached their limit.

(my theory)

[VTECMACHINE]

I'll try explain my theory. let me know what you think!



The red area, is trying to explain the tyre contact with road whilst turning.

Say you have -2.0 Degrees camber on the front, and say you have -2.5 degrees on the rear.

Say you take a right coner... your weight will shift to the left, causing the car to lean over.

Since there is more angle/camber on the rear than the front, there will be more surface area of the tyre touching the road at the rear, opposed to the front. Because the car is moving in a forward motion trying to turn left... and the front it gripping less than the rear, the result will be understeer.

If you were to straighten the rear camber, in this example say to -1.5 degrees. It will be reversed, thus more tyre contact on the front opposed to the rear, and then you will start to become more neutral to Oversteer.

Same concept applies, when FWD race car in Japan use thinner 15's at the rear and wider 16's at the front to induce oversteer as there will be less traction at the rear.

Does that make sense to you... or am I talking the stupidest thing ever.

[VTECMACHINE]

EDIT:

the only reason i am picking this up is that apparition has asked for advice on camber... your advice is quite specific to your individual situation and the effects you are describing are probably due more to "other factors" than the ones you indicate that they are due to...

And hence why I wrote, don't take my word for it. Because I know other people do test out product aswell, and achieve opposite results. Your car isn't a Type R though, and I don't know if a CRV block (I assume as you have a B20, yeah?) is heavier - is could be different, I don't know...

[tinkerbell]

I'll try explain my theory. let me know what you think!



The red area, is trying to explain the tyre contact with road whilst turning.

Say you have -2.0 Degrees camber on the front, and say you have -2.5 degrees on the rear.

Say you take a right coner... your weight will shift to the left, causing the car to lean over.

Since there is more angle/camber on the rear than the front, there will be more surface area of the tyre touching the road at the rear, opposed to the front. Because the car is moving in a forward motion trying to turn left... and the front it gripping less than the rear, the result will be understeer.

lol!

no - camber is NOT static!

it changes depending on which way car is going..

so once the car is turning left, the outside right front is at about 0' camber and is fully flat and possibly starting to lean over to +camber...

same with rears tyres!

[VTECMACHINE]

thicker rear sway = less body roll in the rear = less weight transfer in the rear when turning = possible understeer?

i.e. the rear is more "stuck" to the ground provided the tyres haven't reached their limit.

(my theory)

yeah that's what I understand too, and that's what head of J's racing told me aswell. Makes sense... and it happened. So I believe it.

[PolitoHood]

DC5S - I upgraded my Rear swaybar and i oversteer now.

[VTECMACHINE]

lol!

camber is NOT static!

it changes depending on which way car is going..

so once the car is turning left, the outside right front is at about 0' camber and is fully flat if not starting to lean over to +camber....

same with rears tyres!

Yeah, I know... but you get where i'm coming from? It wasn't the BEST explaination.

[tinkerbell]

Yeah, I know... but you get where i'm coming from? It wasn't the BEST explaination.

yes, i fully understand why you have misunderstood this...

you assumed that camber stays the same once a car starts cornering, it doesnt - so it doenst behave the way you (and 05dc5S) seem to think it does...


OK, still not convinced?

tell me this - why did Honda upgrade the Integra VTiR rear sway bar from 14mm to 23mm?

to make it understeer? no.

and again - why did Honda increase the OEM specifications for camber for the Type R compared to the GSi and VTiR OEM specification?

to make it understeer more? no.

they did it to make the Type R more lively and exciting (read: oversteer)

[00dc2]

lol!

no - camber is NOT static!

it changes depending on which way car is going..

so once the car is turning left, the outside right front is at about 0' camber and is fully flat and possibly starting to lean over to +camber...

same with rears tyres!

its obvious he understands this if you look at his picture. the drawing shows the camber when the car is not moving.. it shows the rear having more neg camber than the front which he says happens when you lower it.. and it shows the part of the front tyres in ground contact when cornering (in red) and the part of the rear tyres in contact when cornering (in red).. he is saying that the extra neg camber at the back means the rear is more planted when cornering so it doesnt want to oversteer..

??

[VTECMACHINE]

I'm not saying MORE neg camber makes a car understeer.

I'm saying, if you have MORE -ve camber at the REAR opposed to the FRONT. You will understeer.

Yes OEM honda had more -ve camber at front, than at the rear. When you lower it with coilovers... you end up with MORE -ve at the REAR than the FRONT.

[VTECMACHINE]

its obvious he understands this if you look at his picture. the drawing shows the camber when the car is not moving.. it shows the rear having more neg camber than the front which he says happens when you lower it.. and it shows the part of the front tyres in ground contact when cornering (in red) and the part of the rear tyres in contact when cornering (in red).. he is saying that the extra neg camber at the back means the rear is more planted when cornering so it doesnt want to oversteer..

??

Spot on! That's 100% what i'm saying, at least someone understand my retarded way of thought.

On another note... have more -ve camber at rear OPPOSED to the front, will make the car more stable through corner similar to Turn 1 at Wakefield.

[Chi]

On my EG civic and My current DC5R with a bigger rear swaybar it was noticeable oversteering more than stock.

I also had more camber on the rear than the front for the civic and it still oversteered like crazy.

And I have many friends who had simply upgraded the rear swaybar with no rear camber kit ( more camber on rear than front ) and it oversteered noticeably.