Honda Legend.

[tinkerbell]

ahhh, it is all about "refinement" is it? so subjective you could park a truck in it...

ah well, i hope one day i can actually be looking for a "refined" car... one day...

[chuck]

tinker, I think you are selling yourself short, you have `refined' your car very nicely.

If you step back for a second, and say the name ocker, it's quite funny...

Honda ... Legennnnd. Gees what a Legend.

I am going to test drive one shortly with my Dad for him, so I'll post you guys a small write up. All I can compare it to in terms of luxury are a IS250 and a LS430.

[tinkerbell]

ha ha ha, one mans "refinement" is another mans "terror" eh?

[narada]

I can see all the brand loyal monkeys coming out with their swords on this one. Regardless apart from looking beyond brand loyalty.

Since price is of key nature @ 80K (Note this is a speculation price on what Honda will be charging, not official), the IS250 in max trim luxury spec just shy of $80K will do just fine in comparison of refinement-only.

The GS430 is out of the price bracket but Honda didn't supply a V8 or hybrid for what is on offer either. Toyota/Lexus (No matter how much Honda owners/lovers/enthusiasts hate) unfortunately does win in the luxury category and is destroying EU manufacturers on consistency, reliability and price.

Honda/Acura? Apologies ... Still a learning curve in this department like how Toyota struggles to deliver any results in F1.

have you ever driven a Legend?

[Noel]

More than once ... Hence the wrapped up response.

[narada]

oh youve driven the new one??.. how does it drive?

i think honda are aiming to be more "luxury performance" with the new SHAWD and their "most powerful production engine ever".. while offering comfort etc too

from what i hear, the US GS430 and Legend are quite similar in all aspects, the GS slightly more quieter, the Legend slightly more better to drive handling wise

from my understanding, the GS might be more "refined" luxury wise, where as the Legend slightly more "refined" from a drivers point of view

ive only experienced the GS430, which is a good car, but you still get that Toyota feel which to me isnt as good "luxury" wise as a merc for overall "Feel"

[Noel]

Comparing performance, handling, luxury refinement (current and superceded FF), it's chalk and cheese. The new engine packs a punch and would deliver what previous Legend owners only wish for. If I had to wrap handling to something in comparative, it'd like an EVO on AYC balance but lacks the nimble approach due to the weight and suspension settings.

The Legend is still soft, however predictable and controllable it is, this aspect does let it down and you still need to throw the weight distribution around to see SH-AWD work its magic. I cannot fault the handling and power output in compliment but I'm gonna have to say it doesn't feel enough and wouldn't relate to an enthusiastic standard (The Euro Sport would do better - Perhaps the transmission choice is attributed.)

Luxury refinement in comparison with a Toyota/Lexus V8? Apologies, the current GS430 and even the GS460H I drove does cream the crop. It's silent, smooth and tramps on with no significant gear changes like a constant gear automatically changing its approach without the driver/cabin passengers feeling it. Honda's engine is still much louder, however VTEC is performance oriented as expected.

You can modify the Legend to make it quicker and respond better on handling but there is little you can do on refinement. In this case, I'd take the GS over the Legend for refinement but if that is a secondary concern, the Legend would no doubt win hands down for a "well informed/knowledged/loves driving Honda owner". It's a succession to upgrade but it's not critically important (I definitely am not in a need to throw this into my Honda stable mostly due to transmission availability). At the price (should it be predicted correctly when it hit the AU showrooms), it's a steal vs a GS430 V8 on pricing and let's not even include the flagship GS460H.

[tinkerbell]

so you are making a "regardless of cost" assessment?

kinda like saying the NSX is not as refined as a ferrari...

[Noel]

This isn't a question of "regardless of cost" concern. This is what you pay and what you get. What do you expect Honda to deliver when priced @ say $80K while this isn't the only $80K car from Honda? I hope you do realize how much a GS430 and/or a GS460H costs and I don't suspect you'd have an impression on how those machines operate either?

Now, which Ferrari would you like to compare with the NSX-R for super top breed state? The Enzo? F430/360CS? I cannot understand the mentality of brand loyalty over what is really out there. It's almost making zero emphasis on truth.

[tinkerbell]

Nah, I have no idea how each operate, i'm just trying to keep a semblance of reality here, whilst you are comparing $130,000 cars to $90,000 cars...

maybe you could attempt to compare a similar priced car?

I never said the Legend is shit or isn't a Honda luxury car. But if luxury is top on the buyer's requirements. For the money and what you expect it to deliver. Other car manufacturers do better. Performance isn't a problem for Honda and never has been. It's refinement and total quality that is never up to par.

i cited the fully optioned Holden Caprice @ $80'000+

which other car manufacturer "does better" for the dollars - that is what i want to know (based on your extensive experience...)

[Noel]

The Caprice is on an 8, which wouldn't be well in rating differences, even if it was a 6. GM doesn't have my vote of confidence thanks to their reliability and consistency woes as opposed to outright showroom standards (Which don't age in glory either).

The GS430 was sub-compared (Using Narada's statement) and isn't much fairer either being on a bigger block. Even the GS300 or IS250L (Which is in better comparo with the Euro instead) both with the 6s would be a better match but lacks the performance aspect of the Legend.

While the Legend does sit in the same category as the GS in Japan on comparisons sakes. Unfortunately, we all know it's either (a) performance orientation or (b) luxury refinement. If we have to be smacked bang on a particular requirement, I don't think there is one fair comparison to be laid out dollar for dollar.

I'd have to word it better; (for category comparison), other manufacturers in the same category/class can do better. I stand correct on the $$$ rating.

[sangers]

you mean ES300.

well we have an ES300. My dad loves it cause of all of the gagetry. What I think.... nothing to write home about. It doesn't drive that nicely. It lacks guts when it comes to performance. It had depreciated a crapload from its original RRP.

So there's another point of discussion... will the Legend hold is value better than some of the other luxury cars on the market. Since they're usually bought on lease (assuming, I have no figures to back me up) they all seem to depreciate fairly quickly with the market that usually buys them, always wanting the latest newest version/model every couple of years.

[tinkerbell]

The Caprice is on an 8, which wouldn't be well in rating differences, even if it was a 6. GM doesn't have my vote of confidence thanks to their reliability and consistency woes as opposed to outright showroom standards (Which don't age in glory either).

The GS430 was sub-compared (Using Narada's statement) and isn't much fairer either being on a bigger block. Even the GS300 or IS250L (Which is in better comparo with the Euro instead) both with the 6s would be a better match but lacks the performance aspect of the Legend.

While the Legend does sit in the same category as the GS in Japan on comparisons sakes. Unfortunately, we all know it's either (a) performance orientation or (b) luxury refinement. If we have to be smacked bang on a particular requirement, I don't think there is one fair comparison to be laid out dollar for dollar.

I'd have to word it better; (for category comparison), other manufacturers in the same category/class can do better. I stand correct on the $$$ rating.

so it is a compromise, performance VS refinement?

then it certainly comes down to as you say "what the buyer places emphasis on" as a dollar for dollar comparison would not really be able to define the value placed on either performance OR refinement...

[narada]

At the price (should it be predicted correctly when it hit the AU showrooms), it's a steal vs a GS430 V8 on pricing and let's not even include the flagship GS460H.

thats what i was trying to say.. the extra 50K difference doesnt justify that little extra "refinement" that you are talking about

but at the same time you get a car that supposedly handles better and is more enjoyable to drive

and yes its not a euro sport or an s2000 but a buyer looking to buy a legend will know that before they go out an buy one

at the end of the day, its all about your own preference and towards a luxury car buyer where money is no object, your probably right, the GS430 probably wins due to its quieter ride and the free parking at the opera house..

if it were my choice (and mine only) then i would probably take the legend, if it drives as well as it should, and spend the extra monies on my clio and chomp all you ITR ARSE!

as for the GS, i dont like the budget trip computer, the indicator stalks, all the other switch gear, the lack of steering feel and its lack of confidence at high speed. the engine transmission is great as you say

[Noel]

Sang - GS not ES, I have nothing nice (so I won't in an effort not to piss anyone off) to say about the ES, prior to current and if I'm not wrong discontinued.

Dave - Yes ... It's always a compromise, no question to that.

Narada - Yes, for a performance standpoint. There is no question that the Honda does handle better and goes quicker. You're the only one with a close relevance on "feel" and what I'm saying. I'm sure you won't have a problem securing a Legend test drive, feedback when you do.

And ex-ITR owner speaking here.