injen cai vs mugen airbox

[05dc5S]

ooops too much studyin ><

injen CAI (and seriously considering gruppeM)

[TODA AU]

I'm onto my 2nd DC5 of my own & I've tuned loads of them.
& when it comes to Mugen Vs Injen intakes on the DC5...
The injen wins everywhere. Why, because it just works better.
As for torque for any use (Road, track, strip).
The Injen makes more torque over the Mugen airbox everywhere.
If it makes more torque... It makes more power...
As for response...
On engines with the same set-up appart from intake,
The engine that makes more power & torque has better response... Period.
Common sense tells you this... All the rest is just Bullshit.
If part throttle response is an issue, maybe it's time to get a better tuner.

As for hydro locking... More bullshit...
Just don't drive the bloody thing into a lake & you'll be fine.
I dive with an Injen every day & couldn't give a toss if I drove though a puddle...
I challenge anyone to find a credible report of someone hydro locking a DC5 while using an Injen.
I bet you can't find anyone on the plannet.
(except perhaps someone who aught to be given a "Darwin Award".)

[dang]

I'm loving this. Very good information.

Hey Adrian, i've got a B18CR with Toda A's and the usual I/H/E atm, using AEM intake. Lets say i was given some ITB's, would i gain anything or will it acutally make things worst cause engine still stockish.

Will be tuned of course.

[Adam]

If part throttle response is an issue, maybe it's time to get a better tuner.

This is not as easy as it sounds in Brisbane Adrian....Maybe you should make some tuning trips up here sometime!

[markR]

all this reading is giving me cravings... for a gruppeM intake!

dunno about u cai owners but when i accelerate part throttle to WOT from low revs, say around 3000rpm there's def a lag, like 1/2 sec which is slightly annoying... but its more than compensated by the sound and power up the top end... def pulls harder thank stock!

this is true. there is a lag in acceleration, but to sacrifice that for top end is a given.

[GoldCoastDC5R]

alright maybe i should steer away from analogies and talk simple science...

the longer a pipe is the more internal resistance to airflow there will be and less cfms delivered to the engine.

by the way i just did your test with just air. here were my procedures..
1. find 4 identical straws
2. connect 3 of the straws end on end but inserted the end of one into the other and repeat for the third.
3. hold your nose so as to block your nostrils from intaking air
4. breathe out deeply so your lungs are almost empty
5. take the short straw and draw air through it.
6. repeat steps 4 and 5 with the long straw

and yes, there was a noticeable difference. it wasn't SFA difference. i invite everyone to perform this test. it costs nothing and is easy enough to do.

Of course there is going to be a difference sang because the relationship of the amount of air to the amount of surface area is very close causing much greater resistence. Simple science dictates that any substance moving through a small pipe will be restricted more than a big pipe. Why do you think we dont have straw sized downpipes on our houses?

Take a 80mm peice of piping that is 1 foot long and one 3 foot long, the amount of resistence on air moving through the pipe from the piping itself is much greatly decreased due to the diameter of the piping. I doubt that there would be any noticeable difference.

And for the record sang my comment about not knowing anything wasn't directed at u.

And i would also suggest you have spent a lot more on you car than me, you did have to purchase and install a new engine after all My cams including install and tuning and ecu upgrade cost less than 4k. At average price your latest mod would have cost you atleast 8k. Other than that our mods are close enuf to identical.

So next time before you go attacking me maybe, have a think. I was never attacking you but simply trying to inform others that what you posted was incorrect with regards to resistence when it comes to CAI, yes my example of straws was not the best but kinda hard to suck through a 80mm pipe unless u got one hell of a big mouth and some big lungs to go with it

I'm with Adrian on this one, gains of any mod comes down to tuning, and in all honestly my car has plenty of torque low in the revs, put it this way i can't even use more than half throttle in 1st gear because my tyres just light up, and that is using 235/40/18's ....

Oh and as for centrax, the amount of time and money they have spent researching the best brake and suspension setup as well as tuning (with MOTEC i must add) for their car is about 10times what has been spent on mine. I have attended 5 track days in my life, how can you compare my driving ability to Chris's???? For your info i was within 0.2 of a second of evan coulston in a highly modified JDM DC5R at wednesday sprints this week and he is a much more aggressive driver than what i am and is running A048 255's on the front to gain traction exiting corners, mean while i am frying my A048 225's on every exit. I don't think mugen intake is the reason for centrax's car being quicker.

Ok so i have my rant for the day, and sang once again not having a go at you just replying to the points you made in relation to my car and to the topic.

If i had the $$$ i'd just get toda quad throttle body setup but that is never going to happen. I am happy with my $400 intake and could never justify spending $1000 on an intake purely for the reasons mentioned in this thread relating to mugen and grumppe m. I would suggest that without tuning then they would be better intakes but once u have hondata then as adrian said injen is better than anything else on the market, i think adrian would know more than the rest of us on this board

[sangers]

Of course there is going to be a difference sang because the relationship of the amount of air to the amount of surface area is very close causing much greater resistence. Simple science dictates that any substance moving through a small pipe will be restricted more than a big pipe. Why do you think we dont have straw sized downpipes on our houses?

exactly, then why did u say it would make SFA difference?

Take a 80mm peice of piping that is 1 foot long and one 3 foot long, the amount of resistence on air moving through the pipe from the piping itself is much greatly decreased due to the diameter of the piping. I doubt that there would be any noticeable difference.

doesn't really matter how big a diameter the pipe is the length of the pipe is directly inversely proportional with the flow rate. hence regardless if we're talking about a 2mm pipe or an 80mm diameter pipe, if you increase the length 3x, then the flow rate is affected by the same rate. would you like me to find the formula for you?

And for the record sang my comment about not knowing anything wasn't directed at u.

And i would also suggest you have spent a lot more on you car than me, you did have to purchase and install a new engine after all My cams including install and tuning and ecu upgrade cost less than 4k. At average price your latest mod would have cost you atleast 8k. Other than that our mods are close enuf to identical.

negative. my new engine cost me, after install and sale of my old engine, less than $4000. how much did your cams cost you?

So next time before you go attacking me maybe, have a think. I was never attacking you but simply trying to inform others that what you posted was incorrect with regards to resistence when it comes to CAI, yes my example of straws was not the best but kinda hard to suck through a 80mm pipe unless u got one hell of a big mouth and some big lungs to go with it

i still disagree as per my comment above regarding the proportionality of the length parameter to the flow rate.

but we are all welcome to our opinions.

I'm with Adrian on this one, gains of any mod comes down to tuning, and in all honestly my car has plenty of torque low in the revs, put it this way i can't even use more than half throttle in 1st gear because my tyres just light up, and that is using 235/40/18's ....

Oh and as for centrax, the amount of time and money they have spent researching the best brake and suspension setup as well as tuning (with MOTEC i must add) for their car is about 10times what has been spent on mine. I have attended 5 track days in my life, how can you compare my driving ability to Chris's???? For your info i was within 0.2 of a second of evan coulston in a highly modified JDM DC5R at wednesday sprints this week and he is a much more aggressive driver than what i am and is running A048 255's on the front to gain traction exiting corners, mean while i am frying my A048 225's on every exit. I don't think mugen intake is the reason for centrax's car being quicker.

evan drives a highly modified JDM DC5R? i thought he only had mugen catback and mugen airbox. no headers as far as i know and no cams. basically just hondata kpro.

i was only comparing your car to centrax's for noel's sake because he wanted to compare you to me when in reality we have completely different objections in mind and have spent completely different budgets.

lets discuss some of these... your $4-5xxx brake setup? your coilovers? vs. my lower springs? my boot full of audio?

again this was just to spite noel's suggestion that the owner with the faster car is the more knowledgeable in parts. i haven't built my car to be a race car or a pure track car. i believe you are building your car for this purpose.

Ok so i have my rant for the day, and sang once again not having a go at you just replying to the points you made in relation to my car and to the topic.

If i had the $$$ i'd just get toda quad throttle body setup but that is never going to happen. I am happy with my $400 intake and could never justify spending $1000 on an intake purely for the reasons mentioned in this thread relating to mugen and grumppe m. I would suggest that without tuning then they would be better intakes but once u have hondata then as adrian said injen is better than anything else on the market, i think adrian would know more than the rest of us on this board

i respect adrian alot and i go to him for advice on many topics, including power related but i disagree with him on this one. like i said earlier, you cannot dyno the gains of a mugen or gruppem intake unless u have a wind tunnel. adrian works day and day out tuning and seeing results... on his dyno.

i rest my case. no hard feelings. i certainly felt that your last response was fuelled by something i had said as some sort of attack and it was not. obviously it just came out wrong on your part. i spurred it on a bit with my response. apologies again.

i hope you get your tune sorted out so you are faster than me. you certainly should be. keen to run again some time though

[GoldCoastDC5R]

Evans car has mugen airbox, toda headers, mugen catback, k-pro tuned to the limit (his injectors are almost maxed out, meaning that he is makin close to 150kw atw) suspension, has brembo's as stock. This is someone who did a 60.0 the sprint day before last.

Like i said there is no way to compare me and Chris on the track. or any two drivers for that matter in all reality.

ok so your engine, install and k-pro and tuning cost you $4000???? i know the k-pro and tuning was $1500+ and like i said cams, springs, retainers, install, tuning and ecu upgrade was under $4000. I'm willing to have a run with you anytime sang, but i'll tell you know that my car doesn't really start moving till 3rd and 4th gear, 1st and 2nd are no indication of how quick my car is due to the amount of wheelspin i get.

Oh and by the way do you ever see them put the fan infront of the passengers side of the car when they are dyno'ing? the fan is placed infront of the centre of the car pointed at the radiator. So i don't think your argument about air not being forced into the mugen box is all that great, there is no air being forced into the CAI either on a dyno like when the car is moving.

I'll agree to disagree, mugen airbox is the best, CAI is cheap rubbish....

[Evatec]

Just thought I would comment here as my car is being discussed. The car is a JDM DC5 that has a higher compression ratio than the Australian model. I have a Mugen air box, Toda headers, HKS Silent Hi-Power exhaust and Hondata K-Pro ECU. As far as I can tell, the cams are standard. They look like standard JDM cams that have 5 degrees more duration than the Australian model cams.

[Evatec]

Last June, I managed a time 60.30 seconds on the sprint circuit at Queensland Raceway. My injector duty cycle indicated over 90%. Last Monday, I had an exhaust shop fit a new flex joint in the exhaust. They fitted a small diameter unit that severely affected the A/F ratio and I didn't pick this up until the first race last Wednesday. It was far too rich. After reducing the fuel and getting the car running reasonably well, the duty cycle only reached 80% and I was obviously down on power and over a second slower than previously.

[GoldCoastDC5R]

Evan you forgot to mention you drive like a mad man Definitely way above my skill level when it comes to driving that is for sure. Can't wait for next sprint session, hopefully you have your tune fixed will be good to see you go under 60secs

[sangers]

Evans car has mugen airbox, toda headers, mugen catback, k-pro tuned to the limit (his injectors are almost maxed out, meaning that he is makin close to 150kw atw) suspension, has brembo's as stock. This is someone who did a 60.0 the sprint day before last.

even with that short mod list, i wouldnt consider his car to be a "heavily modified jdm dc5r". he hasn't even done internals. all bolt on mods there and his brakes and sussy are oem

Like i said there is no way to compare me and Chris on the track. or any two drivers for that matter in all reality.

like i said again and i wont say it again. i was only comparing you and chris for the sake of noel since he was trying to compare you and me. are your even reading my posts?

ok so your engine, install and k-pro and tuning cost you $4000???? i know the k-pro and tuning was $1500+ and like i said cams, springs, retainers, install, tuning and ecu upgrade was under $4000. I'm willing to have a run with you anytime sang, but i'll tell you know that my car doesn't really start moving till 3rd and 4th gear, 1st and 2nd are no indication of how quick my car is due to the amount of wheelspin i get.

i wasn't really counting kpro but if u want to count it the total comes to less than $5000.

$5300 jdm engine
$150 shipping
$500 install
-$2300 sale of old engine
-$280 sale of jdm intake manifold
-$230 sale of jdm rocker cover set
+$1150 hondata kpro
+$600 tune

i usually don't elaborate on such details but you're being so pushy about it, here it is. i have nothing to hide. every mod i have done ive done at a reasonable price - below rrp. every mod ive done to my car ive done to take advantage of a group buy or special price or in the case of the above, because i had to.

Oh and by the way do you ever see them put the fan infront of the passengers side of the car when they are dyno'ing? the fan is placed infront of the centre of the car pointed at the radiator. So i don't think your argument about air not being forced into the mugen box is all that great, there is no air being forced into the CAI either on a dyno like when the car is moving.

I'll agree to disagree, mugen airbox is the best, CAI is cheap rubbish....

i never said mugen airbox is the best and cai is cheap rubish. read my first post to see what i think of both intakes.

a pissy little fan is not going to make up for the kind of airflow that the front of a car is meant to experience when actually moving. like i said, and take my word for it from my background and expertise in engineering, only a wind tunnel can simulate the kind of airflow you would expect as i said.

[GoldCoastDC5R]

even with that short mod list, i wouldnt consider his car to be a "heavily modified jdm dc5r". he hasn't even done internals. all bolt on mods there and his brakes and sussy are oem


a pissy little fan is not going to make up for the kind of airflow that the front of a car is meant to experience when actually moving. like i said, and take my word for it from my background and expertise in engineering, only a wind tunnel can simulate the kind of airflow you would expect as i said.

Sang stop talking about evan's car when you don't know what you are talking about (not saying that i know every detail but i do know a little bit). I never new standard suspension was damper adjustable, maybe i was seeing things when Evan stiffened the damper settings on his car on wednesday, only JDM models must come with this option

I also think Evan and his back yard handy skills has overcome the problem with the restrictive intake pipe from the front bar to the airbox. The way his setup works seems much better than the standard mugen part... Maybe you could post up a pic Evan because i think your funnel type setup would help in getting a lot more air into the box, which is why i assume you have changed it.

And with regards to the dyno fan the CAI has the same problem as the mugen airbox if you read what my point is. The fan of the dyno is pointed at the radiator to keep the engine cool. It doesn't benefit any type of intake when compared to a moving car scenario where air is rammed into both the airbox and the CAI.

I'm out, had enough of this bickering. Over and Out

[Evatec]

Just a little more information about my car. It has as standard front brembo brakes. Ferodo brake pads are fitted as standard but a little too soft. I am running quite hard Ferodo pads at the moment (pads listed for Nissan GTR to be exact). The harder pads require more effort on the brake pedal but give a very progressive feel under heavy braking. Had to do some work getting the front to rear balance just right. This is very important I feel for having nice brakes for racing.

The car is also running Tein Flex suspension and I am running close to or at maximum dampening depending on the grip of the race track on the day. I have been making minor adjustments to the toe and camber to get the car feeling very controllable under most situations and driving style. I am running more negative camber on the left front than the right to get the car how I like it to be.

Getting onto air boxes (as this is the thread), I do run a Mugen system mainly because it was on the car when I purchased it. The Mugen snorkle was missing. Nothing was connected leaving a hole in the side of the air box for the intake. I did consider getting a Mugen snorkle, but had to buy a whole new system, so I decided to make my own. I did however measure the cross-sectional area of a genuine Mugen snorkle and found it to be adequate in size. I feel my intake duct is better though and the purpose in my design (???) was to catch cold air flowing just below the bonnet line and above the cross member supporting the top of the radiator. The standard snorkle (oem Honda as well as Mugen) collect air flowing below the cross member and above the top tank of the radiator. My system may allow slightly cooler air to reach the air box. The Injun system correctly mounted picks up cold air only and may be even better again (although I feel the gains are extremely marginal). The Mugen system does have a very large cross-sectional filter area. From an engineering point of view, there are a number of other factors to consider when comparing quite different intake systems prior to air reaching the throttle body particularly intake manifold resonance. This is a rather long story, so maybe another time, but my feeling is that the Injun system may promote better manifold resonance. The Mugen air box uses the standard oem duct to the throttle body. Because of this, I feel that the Mugen system will increase flow over the standard air box, but do little to improve the resonance in the intake manifold. (NB. Good resonance in the intake manifold assists in the flow rate of air to each combustion chamber ( another long story).

Yes, I was driving agressively last Wednesday to make up for the power loss. Twice exiting corners, I got all four wheels onto the dirt, and once going through the esses (turn 3), I just clipped the side of the tyres on the apex flicking the left-hand side of the car up into the air nearly a meter (verified by the Evo driver I had just passed). For a moment, I thought I would have to straight line the car into the in-field to stop it landing on its roof, but all was fine. Just kept cornering on two wheels with the throttle pedal to the floor. Must have been 15 meters or so before the left side came back to earth with a very smooth touch down. Interesting experience. Where do we buy roll over protection??????

[supernatural]

good posts... keep them coming...