Info/possible G.buy: Wilwood Dynalite Big Brake Front Kit

[tofuR]

hehehe u have to pay for rice!
red calipers go faster@!! i mean make u slow faster!

[dy1973]

Possible Interest Level:

1. Dy1973
2. Funky R
3. Black Spirit

Peeps, I have $2k budget - damn torn between a good set of coilover around $2K or
this Wilwood BBK plus Koni Yellows with my current Eibach Sportline around $2.5k max. This will be my last mods for a while before Header & ECU. Need to buy a house yo.


If you might be interested, just add name to the list so I can get back to the vendor what kinda quantity we are talking bout.

[Black_Spirit]

smaller caliper maybe, but it has larger diameter rotors, giving better mechanical advantage.

although the pads might be smaller, the same pressure would be applied to the pads.

can you please explain further about the larger diameter of the rotors giving a better mechanical advantage, plz?

cuz i was just thinking about this and i'm no physics student, so u must excuse my laymans terms but:
Friction = Coefficient x Weight

and in which case, the weight can be equalled to the biting force of the calipers? the coefficient is the type of pads used?
so.... where does the increased in diameter play a role in the "giving better mechanical advantage"?

small calipers = smaller surface area of contact between the caliper and the rotor... err... if ur trying to say that the size of the calipers doesn't matter, and the large diameter of the rotor "does" matter... y not just get a large rotor in the first place and not bother with this kit....???

i'm so confused now... and think i just confused myself again by writing this.. hehe

[BlackDC2]

can you please explain further about the larger diameter of the rotors giving a better mechanical advantage, plz?

cuz i was just thinking about this and i'm no physics student, so u must excuse my laymans terms but:
Friction = Coefficient x Weight

and in which case, the weight can be equalled to the biting force of the calipers? the coefficient is the type of pads used?
so.... where does the increased in diameter play a role in the "giving better mechanical advantage"?

small calipers = smaller surface area of contact between the caliper and the rotor... err... if ur trying to say that the size of the calipers doesn't matter, and the large diameter of the rotor "does" matter... y not just get a large rotor in the first place and not bother with this kit....???

i'm so confused now... and think i just confused myself again by writing this.. hehe

how are you going to get a larger rotor on stock calipers/brackets

if you want to use standard calipers with larger rotors, there is an ideal AEM rotor kit for sale in the forsale forums.

as for machanical advanatage, picture this, you are trying to undo a bolt, is it easier to undo the bolt with a 20cm ratchet or a 40cm ratchet?

it is easier to undo with the 40cm ratchet, same goes for brakes.

If you apply X force to a 200mm rotor, to have the same breaking effect on a 300mm rotor, less force would need to be applied.

[dy1973]

For calipers braking performance assuming pad friction material is the same, which contributes more to improve stopping performance? - the actual size of the calipers dimensions or the number of pistons the caliper has??

[BlackDC2]

For calipers braking performance assuming pad friction material is the same, which contributes more to improve stopping performance? - the actual size of the calipers dimensions or the number of pistons the caliper has??

if you are running the same size rotors, same pads, i would go with the caliper that has the larger pad area.

[sangers]

For calipers braking performance assuming pad friction material is the same, which contributes more to improve stopping performance? - the actual size of the calipers dimensions or the number of pistons the caliper has??

^^ number of pistons is a huge factor. contrary to the belief of some other jerk ..err, i mean, previous member of clubrsx (not sure if he's a member of this board yet).

i upgraded to jdm dc5r brembos and apparently the contact area of my the brakes is only slightly larger than the contact area of my old audm front brakes (rear contact area is exactly the same). but the difference in performance is immeasurable IMO.

the other day i was showing off the acceleration of my new motor to some friends through some backstreets and came up to an unexpected crossroad where i had to give way - woops. probably for the first time ever, with my brembos, i floored the brake pedal and pulled up ridiculously fast. partial thanks goes to abs, of course. there wasn't a car coming across the crossroad but had there been, without my brake upgrade, i may not be here today.

...so contact area isn't everything.

[tofuR]

of cos its the best combination of all things =)

[STEVtEc]

number of pistons can't be that important.... M3's run full floating SINGLE piston calipers! and they have great brakes!

[no_torq]

of cos its the best combination of all things =)

True. The brake system in a car is only as good as its weekest link. I could put r33/r34 gtr brembo calipers onto an EF civic. Use braided lines, the best pads and synthetic fluid. but if the master cylinder is stock. whats the point?

[tofu]

a larger rotor doesn't mean a larger contact area. because your pad and caliper size are still the same. This also means that you've now got more surface to "slow down" if that makes any sense.

Imagine you trying to stop a sliding glass plate off a slopping table with your palm. If that plate is small in size, there's no probs in stopping it, but if it was a huge glass plate, you would need more than one hand to stop it from sliding off the table. Hence you need more force to stop a bigger rotor, hence the number of pistons and size of caliper are both important IMO.

But i also do not think that a larger caliper alone with greater contact area (given the rotors are the same) will stop that much faster. Because if i was to use my previous sliding glass plate example, a larger caliper just means the person stopping the falling plate has a larger palm. He still need to exert a certain amount of force to physically stop it. I agree it might be slightly easier to stop with a larger, but having more pistons over a larger surface is probably the best solution.

[Vincent]

^^ number of pistons is a huge factor. contrary to the belief of some other jerk ..err, i mean, previous member of clubrsx (not sure if he's a member of this board yet).

i upgraded to jdm dc5r brembos and apparently the contact area of my the brakes is only slightly larger than the contact area of my old audm front brakes (rear contact area is exactly the same). but the difference in performance is immeasurable IMO.

the other day i was showing off the acceleration of my new motor to some friends through some backstreets and came up to an unexpected crossroad where i had to give way - woops. probably for the first time ever, with my brembos, i floored the brake pedal and pulled up ridiculously fast. partial thanks goes to abs, of course. there wasn't a car coming across the crossroad but had there been, without my brake upgrade, i may not be here today.

...so contact area isn't everything.

woot, I think I am the jerk you are referring to , here is one for you -> Japanese people are getting rid of JDM DC5R Brembo and this YOU are buying their rubbish DC5R Brembo that Japanese don't want and thinking to yourself YOU found GOLD. If they were so good, why people are swapping them out for different brands? Maybe they just have to mod it so you can have their rubbish ..... !

Brake pad size;

JDM Brembo pad size is 119.8 x 73
AUDM DC5R pad size is 135 x 52.4

Since you have installed the JDM DC5R Brembo with the front lower control arms and knuckle assembly as JDM spec and your rear control arm is the same as AUDM spec therefore the vehicle track is not correct as the front is wider then the rear due to the design variation from JDM to AUDM. Can you say that the handling performance is not affected by that change in any way?

Big brake kit is good for REPEATED braking not once off street show off session. Most standard brake do work once or twice at max performance but can't with strain constant max performance braking without fading. You may be even slower with a big brake kit in some circumstances.

Most of the time, changing to a better brake pad, braided lines and better fluid will be sufficient for most uses.

The greater number of pistons a caliper has, the more even the brake pad is pushed again the face of the rotor. This may mean the brake pad wear is more even due to the pressure of the brake pad against the rotor. Various design such as floating and fixed braking systems have different uses and effectiveness characterics. Vary's from car to car.

[MrThanh]

probably for the first time ever, with my brembos, i floored the brake pedal and pulled up ridiculously fast. partial thanks goes to abs, of course. there wasn't a car coming across the crossroad but had there been, without my brake upgrade, i may not be here today.

...so contact area isn't everything.

if the brakes have enough force to lock up the wheels, then it should stop you in the same distance - with or without the brembos (all other things being equal of course). abs would also increase stopping distance too, as the controller will back off the braking to avoid having the wheels lock up, which will mean that there isn't as much friction between the tyre and the road.

[WhiteDC2]

Also, take into consideration the stock caliper is a two piece item where the Willwood is one piece. Even though the pad area is smaller than stock, there are advantages in the one piece, multi-piston design. Multiple pistons allow even pressure to be applied and the one piece design reduces the caliper flexing. Of course, the best case is to have more pad area, more pistons, one piece calipers and larger rotors.

Some are still failing to see the huge advantage in leverage of having larger diameter rotors. Not only is there more material for more efficient heat dissapation which allows repeated stopping as mentioned above, the caliper being located further out from the axis (the hub) has more leverage. Therefore the caliper with the greater leverage can apply more opposing force at the axis than oem position caliper - assuming the same amount of friction is applied by both calipers.

Master cylinder piston size was also mentioned. The size of the master cylinder piston size has a big affect on how the pedal feels. If the oem caliper piston area / master cylinder piston area ratio is similar to the modified caliper piston area / master cylinder piston area ratio expect similar pedal feel. A bigger master cylinder piston will give you less pedal travel while a smaller item will give a longer travelling pedal.

Take into consideration your tyres - the best AP setup in the world isn't much good with cheese cutters. Get some decent rubber so the brakes can do their job.

I had a Commodore that I upgraded from a large single piston setup to a large twin piston setup. The pedal was noticeably longer in it's travel but the braking performance had improved due to the great pad area and even clamping force. It was by no means inspiring though, knowing that there was no pedal travel allowed for fade etc.

I then upgraded the Commodore to a much smaller 4-piston R33 Skyline setup. The pad area was almost half of the twin piston caliper but the R33 caliper was one piece and the multiple, but smaller pistons gave a much improved, near stock pedal feel. Rotor size was also increased 30mm producing a system that gave huge braking power compared to stock and even the twin piston setup. Even though the pad area was smaller, better braking performance was produced through improved caliper design and greater mechanical advantage.

The feel and performance of the Commodore 4 piston R33 setup was good and certainly did the job. My current setup on my DC2 eclipses it in every which way. The 6 piston AP Racing caliper are one piece and provide more pad area than oem and the rotor size has been increased in diameter and in width. The system has better pedal feel than oem and the master cylinder is stock.

The Willwoods are good bang for buck and definitely do the job - ask BlackDC2 on how his system performs and feels. I've driven it and the setup gives a fairly hard pedal feel, with fairly dull bite on low pedal pressure. However, you jump on them and they come up with the goods.

Like engines, the limit on how far you can go in braking performance is your wallet. I know the aim for this buy is for 99% street use and the Willwoods definitely will be sufficient. However, the oem braking system on DC2's is really good - better pads, braided lines are better fluid provide a great system on the road and track. If you really want marked improvement in braking on the DC2, save your money and go for AP/Alcon. If you're after bling with a little better performance Spoon/Willwood is the go. I can't comment on the DC5 chassis, so the Willwoods might well be a good step up.

Just food for thought before you part with your hard earnt dollars. Make sure you'll be happy with your choice, or you find yourself upgrading the very parts you installed X months ago...

[freakie]

Thats great info Troy.

I agree with everything said so far, also wanted to add in the factor of uneven brake pad wear on the single piston floating caliper design for stock systems. Most of the aftermarket solid one peice calipers also utilise dual piston or 4 piston setups that not only allow a consistent approach for braking performance in relation to pedal travel, but it also gives a more even contact patch and hence keeps pad wear relatively even.

Also, take into consideration the stock caliper is a two piece item where the Willwood is one piece. Even though the pad area is smaller than stock, there are advantages in the one piece, multi-piston design. Multiple pistons allow even pressure to be applied and the one piece design reduces the caliper flexing. Of course, the best case is to have more pad area, more pistons, one piece calipers and larger rotors.

Some are still failing to see the huge advantage in leverage of having larger diameter rotors. Not only is there more material for more efficient heat dissapation which allows repeated stopping as mentioned above, the caliper being located further out from the axis (the hub) has more leverage. Therefore the caliper with the greater leverage can apply more opposing force at the axis than oem position caliper - assuming the same amount of friction is applied by both calipers.

Master cylinder piston size was also mentioned. The size of the master cylinder piston size has a big affect on how the pedal feels. If the oem caliper piston area / master cylinder piston area ratio is similar to the modified caliper piston area / master cylinder piston area ratio expect similar pedal feel. A bigger master cylinder piston will give you less pedal travel while a smaller item will give a longer travelling pedal.

Take into consideration your tyres - the best AP setup in the world isn't much good with cheese cutters. Get some decent rubber so the brakes can do their job.

I had a Commodore that I upgraded from a large single piston setup to a large twin piston setup. The pedal was noticeably longer in it's travel but the braking performance had improved due to the great pad area and even clamping force. It was by no means inspiring though, knowing that there was no pedal travel allowed for fade etc.

I then upgraded the Commodore to a much smaller 4-piston R33 Skyline setup. The pad area was almost half of the twin piston caliper but the R33 caliper was one piece and the multiple, but smaller pistons gave a much improved, near stock pedal feel. Rotor size was also increased 30mm producing a system that gave huge braking power compared to stock and even the twin piston setup. Even though the pad area was smaller, better braking performance was produced through improved caliper design and greater mechanical advantage.

The feel and performance of the Commodore 4 piston R33 setup was good and certainly did the job. My current setup on my DC2 eclipses it in every which way. The 6 piston AP Racing caliper are one piece and provide more pad area than oem and the rotor size has been increased in diameter and in width. The system has better pedal feel than oem and the master cylinder is stock.

The Willwoods are good bang for buck and definitely do the job - ask BlackDC2 on how his system performs and feels. I've driven it and the setup gives a fairly hard pedal feel, with fairly dull bite on low pedal pressure. However, you jump on them and they come up with the goods.

Like engines, the limit on how far you can go in braking performance is your wallet. I know the aim for this buy is for 99% street use and the Willwoods definitely will be sufficient. However, the oem braking system on DC2's is really good - better pads, braided lines are better fluid provide a great system on the road and track. If you really want marked improvement in braking on the DC2, save your money and go for AP/Alcon. If you're after bling with a little better performance Spoon/Willwood is the go. I can't comment on the DC5 chassis, so the Willwoods might well be a good step up.

Just food for thought before you part with your hard earnt dollars. Make sure you'll be happy with your choice, or you find yourself upgrading the very parts you installed X months ago...