Gear Type Helical LSD - OEM/Mfactory/Quaife

[Tiu]

Have got the mFactory helical LSD, Exedy stage 1 clutch kit, Jun 3.8Kg forged flywheel in the jazz which was installed about 2 weeks ago.

Still haven't pushed it as yet because just getting used to the new clutch and just letting everything run in first. at the moment it clocked around 800km, so probably let it wear in a little more first then i will comment on the mFactory LSD.







Jazz's gearbox out, reading to remove the open diff to make way for the mFactory LSD

[e240]

Thanks to all for your support - I just want to clarify a few points

First of all, before I start, I would like to mention something, seeing as a point about manufacturing OEM for Ford/Renault was brought up to highlight the quality of the Quaife Unit. There is a reason why Honda of America chose MFactory as their official transmission supplier for all their production-based race cars, and not Quaife/Wavetrac/OBX.

Just a little information on differentials: A "Helical LSD" is not really an "LSD" i.e Limited Slip Differential. In general, the only differentials classed as Limited Slip are Plate/Clutch Type LSD's i.e MFactory Metal Plate, Kaaz/Spoon, ATS, OS Giken, Cusco

A "Helical LSD" is actually based upon the original "Torsen" design, so infact, instead of LSD, it should be called a TSD; Torque Sensing Differential. The term Helical LSD is only used for marketing purposes when referring to a TSD, although a lot of companies that offer/sell Helical LSD's don't even know the difference.

Quaife, being Quaife, decided to reverse-engineer the Torsen design (nothing wrong with that, we done it as well, as did Honda and lots of other companies), called theirs the ATB (Auto Torque Biasing) Differential, then decided to get a completely worthless European Patent for it to "look" original (they didn't tell people it was worthless though), market it as their super duper original lsd and would sue anyone in Europe who would release a similar design (even though it wouldn't stand up in court as their patent was worthless).

Because of this, in Europe, mention the word LSD, and the first thing that comes to mind is Quaife. Never would they have thought that Quaife is actually a copy of someone else. Is it a good quality product? Of course it is. Is it worth the money? Depends on the buyer. A Patek Philippe connoisseur would think a Rolex is cheap, just like how a Rolex connoisseur would think a Grand Seiko is cheap. In other words, you are paying for the Brand Name. There are 5 major brands of TSD's for a Honda: Honda, Quaife, MFactory, Wavetrac, OBX

Which brand TSD is actually better though? They are all good quality (except the OBX. No other words can describe just how bad the quality is), so it's really up to the buyer to decide:

Strength/Durability:
OEM - Cast. Is weaker than the metal it was cut from
Quaife - Machine Cut (Billet). As strong as the metal it was cut from
Wavetrac - Machine Cut (Billet). As strong as the metal it was cut from
MFactory - Forged. Upto 30% tougher than the metal it was cut from
OBX - Cast. Is weaker than the metal it was cut from

Quality (Machining/Tolerance):
OEM - Within oem specs
Quaife - Within oem specs
Wavetrac - Within oem specs (after they fixed their axle issues)
MFactory - Within oem specs
OBX - Toss of a coin. Some are ok (but still quite bad), some are ridiculously bad

Performance:
OEM - Fine for most grocery getters. Might find your diff exploding though after a few aggressive seasons. Cannot handle too high of a torque level
Quaife - No difference in aggressiveness from OEM as same bias ratio and tooth angle. Can handle higher torque. 2010+ models lighter weight (after copying us. Ironic, as pro-Quaife consumers think we are just a cheap copy of them)
Wavetrac - No difference in aggressiveness from OEM as same bias ratio and tooth angle. Patent-pending design that allows it to function under extreme traction loss (i.e one wheel in the air). Effectiveness rather controversial though. Can handle higher torque.
MFactory - Same bias ratio as OEM, but more aggressive tooth angle (i.e more power is transferred to the ground). Can handle higher torque. Is lightweight (due to being Forged + our weight reducing features)
OBX - Is a cheap copy of the Quaife. Toss of a coin. Get a good one, and you may be ok for a while. Otherwise, expensive tranny rebuild.

Value for Money:
OEM - No warranty (unless it is original equipment). Very expensive brand new, relatively affordable 2nd Hand
Quaife - Lifetime warranty (dependant on Distributor policy. Officially, Quaife only offer the warranty to their own customers). As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Is the most expensive.
Wavetrac - Lifetime warranty. Again, you get what you pay for. Is slightly cheaper than the Quaife
MFactory - Lifetime warranty. Goes against the saying; You actually get more than what you pay for . Is the cheapest "Quality" differential, but is certainly not "cheap" (it is "lower cost" because of our manufacturing process i.e Forging, not because of its Quality).
OBX - Lifetime warranty (which is never honored). You get what you pay for, and is a very expensive paperweight if you buy a dud. By far the cheapest.

Brand Recognition:
OEM - Who's never heard of Honda?
Quaife - The most recognisable
Wavetrac - Owned by Autotech, the previous North American distributor for Quaife. Ditched Quaife (and left a lot of warranty claims in the gutter) to pursue their own product line
MFactory - We released our Helical LSD 2 years ago. Since the late 90's, Quaife had 70% share of the North American Honda aftermarket. Now, in 2011, we have 70% share of the North American Honda aftermarket. The rest is shared between Quaife/Wavetrac/OBX
OBX - An eBay Company

In summary? The MFactory is Stronger, Lighter and Machined Better than the Quaife, and this is a proven fact. To top it off, it is also a lower cost. The only reason why you would purchase a Quaife over an MFactory, is if you are after the brand name/bragging rights.

Hope this information will be of use to you

[stevan]

Have got the mFactory helical LSD, Exedy stage 1 clutch kit, Jun 3.8Kg forged flywheel in the jazz which was installed about 2 weeks ago.

Still haven't pushed it as yet because just getting used to the new clutch and just letting everything run in first. at the moment it clocked around 800km, so probably let it wear in a little more first then i will comment on the mFactory LSD.

Very nice mate! definitely keep us updated on how it goes!!

[stevan]

Value for Money:
OEM - No warranty (unless it is original equipment). Very expensive brand new, relatively affordable 2nd Hand
Quaife - Lifetime warranty (dependant on Distributor policy. Officially, Quaife only offer the warranty to their own customers). As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Is the most expensive.
Wavetrac - Lifetime warranty. Again, you get what you pay for. Is slightly cheaper than the Quaife
MFactory - Lifetime warranty. Goes against the saying; You actually get more than what you pay for . Is the cheapest "Quality" differential, but is certainly not "cheap" (it is "lower cost" because of our manufacturing process i.e Forging, not because of its Quality).
OBX - Lifetime warranty (which is never honored). You get what you pay for, and is a very expensive paperweight if you buy a dud. By far the cheapest.

Thankyou for the great post it puts everything into perspective greatly! Just one thing though, hot forging should be one of the most expensive forms of manufacture for any product (especially used in premium golf equipment and is always the most expensive) as it aligns the metal grains to most effictively resist the design stresses, so i cant imagine how Mfactory can have lower manufacture cost than Quaife for example purely because of this??

Don't take this as me questioning Mfactory in any way i was just curious. It would be hard for anyone after reading this post to buy a Quaife unit over the Mfactory, i am 90% sold on the idea

[lukits01]

Because of this, in Europe, mention the word LSD, and the first thing that comes to mind is Quaife. Never would they have thought that Quaife is actually a copy of someone else. Is it a good quality product? Of course it is. Is it worth the money? Depends on the buyer. A Patek Philippe connoisseur would think a Rolex is cheap, just like how a Rolex connoisseur would think a Grand Seiko is cheap.

hmm, can I just clarify, do you mean to say what Renault and Ford are using is not a Quaife brand of Torsen? but in fact their own "generic" diff?

p.s. I'll take a Grand Seiko over Rolex any day

[e240]

stevan:
Manufacturing with the Forging process is actually very economical; the main expense is with the initial tooling cost. Once this has been paid for, the subsequent units are low cost to produce and there is no waste material (unlike with "Billet"). Of course, you need to manufacture very high quantities to offset the initial tooling cost, then each batch run after that works out even lower cost because no tooling investment is required. This is why most aftermarket gear manufacturers don't offer Forged Products, as they try to "specialise", and don't have the market to make the high quantities to keep costs low. Quaife do have their market now, but they invested all their funds into CNC machines; they don't have the capability to produce a Forged product at low cost.

lukits01:
Ford/Renault use the Quaife ATB in their production cars. A Helical LSD is a Helical LSD (be it MFactory, Quaife, OBX, Torsen etc); using a fancy sounding name and an expired and worthless patent doesn't make it better (although that's what they want you to think).

[lukits01]

Ford/Renault use the Quaife ATB in their production cars. A Helical LSD is a Helical LSD (be it MFactory, Quaife, OBX, Torsen etc); using a fancy sounding name and an expired and worthless patent doesn't make it better (although that's what they want you to think).

fair enough, but I'm sure there are differences between helical differential that would make, say an Quaife or MsFactory a worthwhile investment over OBX cause I find it hard to believe that major manufacturers like Ford/Renault would put a Quaife in their hero cars purely for fancy sounding name.

On a similar topic, when would you recommend your plate type LSD over your Torsen diff?

[Ian aka anjin]

Can't say I've had the diff unload, but at 1.3 or so lateral g I do get a bit of what I feel as momentary slips/judder. Doesn't affect balance or line. Blox helical gear lsd.
The suspension is stiff - 600 lb spring rates front and rear on an 850kg crx, plus I run the biggest front antiroll bar I can get (20mm), and adjustable rear bar (14mm). 155 hp at the wheels.

I'd go plate clutch next time as the car is now primarily track use, and there is a performance improvement with plate lsd's. At the time of decision I was looking at road use with some track use.

[cartoon]

i actually ended up deciding the the Mfactory LSD, aso decided on there clutch and fly which ill be purchasing shortly. This will all be to run a dc2/k24 set up so when its on the road ill let let you know how it all feels.


I figured the yanks use it on alll there race cars so why not give it a go. found all there gear greatly priced.

[e240]

On a similar topic, when would you recommend your plate type LSD over your Torsen diff?

Really depends on the usage.

There's race cars and street cars - as a general guide,
Race cars = Metal
Street cars = helical/torsen

however, there are exceptions to the street car,

If you're a hardcore performance junkie and can tolerate little inconvenience on the road - use the Metal for full one performance. Just get use to ignorant ppl/mates coming up to your car telling you its broken when they hear the slipping noise.
However, it does make for great stories in the "mates who are full of shit" thread on ozhonda.

and then complete the whole picture/sound with our Twin Plate clutch as well..!!!

[stevan]

where abouts is Mfactory products made??

[e240]

Ours gears and LSDs are manufactured in our own factory in Taiwan, built to our specifications using industry leading Japanese CNC and CAM equipment.

[lukits01]

also, what kind of gear oil do you use for both torsen and plate type?

[e240]

There's a couple of answers to that post:
Gear Oil: The Truth
One of the most commonly brought up questions from our customers is what gear oil to use in their freshly built Honda Transmission. Our reply to this question has always been: DON'T!
"He must be crazy", you are probably thinking, but there is a simple explanation for this answer:

After a comprehensive analysis, we can conclude that a large number of drivers out there use the completely wrong fluid. The lubrication system in the Honda transmission was designed to use engine oil, and this has not been changed for any of their transmissions. What this means is that, in order for the gears, shafts, bearings, hubs/sliders to be lubricated as intended, a low viscosity transmission fluid must be used, regardless of whether it is synchronous engagement or dog engagement.

Basically, you MUST use the correct transmission fluid in a Honda Transmission and should not use a performance gear oil as it is too thick and does more damage than good. Performance Gear Oils also lack the additives necessary for the smooth running of the synchronous engagement system, as well as a lot of them containining chemicals which disintegrate the brass synchro rings. This is not common knowledge because customers are led to believe marketing and/or technical advice related to your typically large hypoid transmissions, NOT your specialist Honda Transmission.

For most cases where the vehicle is an unmodified Street Car, the OEM Honda MTF (Manual Transmission Fluid) is more than adequate. The problem arises when you start putting either higher power or higher rpm shifting through the transmission. Not only must you still keep within the tolerances of the oem lubrication system, you must also protect the transmission from shock loads. Using Performance Gear Oil is the Number 2 Reason (after incorrect installation) that is directly responsible for most transmission failures (i.e the Cause), subsequently leading to a part failure (i.e the Symptom).

Unfortunately, most consumers tend to follow the advice of your so-called "Performance Specialist" who are only concerned about the symptoms, rather than the cause, and usually end up recommending big-brand (and often expensive) performance gear oils. This is a 100% NO GO on a Honda Transmission. Although GL4 & GL5 Rated Gear Oils contain shock protection additives, they are also too thick for the oem Honda lubrication system. The engagement system (synchronous vs dog) is irrelevant in this case. Lubrication is the key word here.

A basic analogy would be: Oil is your transmissions blood supply and needs to flow smoothly. Clog it up with cholesterol (i.e thick gear oil), and it will have a heart attack. Not enough Iron (i.e shock additives), and it will get anaemic/weak.

Source:http://www.teammfactory.com/oil-myth

[e240]

For daily drivers and weekend warriors, Honda MTF is more than adequate. If it is just a daily driver that sees no harsh shifting whatsoever, then 10w30 engine oil is also more than adequate.

Honda MTF is just 10w30 engine oil + friction modifiers i.e Helps the synchros to "bite" better.

for a Honda transmission, used on something that will see a lot of track time, what you want is:

1) Low Viscosity Fluid. This is 100% necessity, as the fluid needs to lubricate the bearings. Thick "Gear Oil" cannot do this, and will clog up the oil pathways

2) Friction Modifiers + Yellow Metal Friendly. The modifiers help the synchros to to "bite" better against the gear cone. A synchro ring after all is just a brake pad. The additives in the fluid MUST also be yellow metal friendly (i.e Brass Synchros). A lot of the "Performance Gear Oils" on the market are not yellow metal friendly, and every special "LSD Oil" on the market has the wrong type of friction modifier i.e They make the plates "slip", thus they also make the synchros "slip", which is NOT want you want when shifting at high rpm.

3) Shock additives. These make the fluid more shear stable at high temperatures, and help cushion the shock loads generated by the transmission.

Now, the following is probably hard for most to take in, as they've been brainwashed by the LSD Manufacturers for god knows how many decades now:

Helical/Torsen LSD - This is a gear type LSD, it does NOT require any special sort of fluid. Just use fluid that meets the requirements stated above

Plate LSD - This type of LSD uses plates, which rub against each other causing the "lock" (Helical LSD's do not lock as they are torque biasing). The more friction there is, the harder the plates will lock. A by product of this though is "chatter" i.e the noise commonly associated with a Plate LSD. As with the Helical LSD, a Plate LSD does NOT require a special type of fluid. Just use fluid that meets the requirements stated above. However, if you do not like the "chatter", then you should add Ford Friction Modifier in very small quantities until the level of "chatter" becomes acceptable to your ears. Noise control is the ONLY reason to use this type of friction modifier (which has the opposite effect of the friction modifier used in MTF or Synchromesh-type fluids) on the average street/weekend warrior. If it is a race only car, then you shouldn't be concerned with noise. In this scenario, using friction modifier is so that you can fine tune how much the plates "lock".

The ONLY reason why an LSD Manufacturer insists that you must use their "Special Oil" is because they are trying to make more money from you. And 90% of car enthusiasts, unfortunately, have been brainwashed and believe them (or believe their tuner/mechanic, who are just as brainwashed).

So to conclude:

Street Car/Daily Driver - Honda MTF
Street Car/Weekend Warrior - Honda MTF/Torco MTF/Amsoil MTF/Pennzoil Synchromesh
Race Car - Torco MTF/Amsoil MTF/Pennzoil Synchromesh
+ Plate LSD - Add Ford Friction Modifier until the noise level becomes acceptable to you. Everyone is different. However, the more you add, the less effective your synchros are at high rpm.