Gear Type Helical LSD - OEM/Mfactory/Quaife

[stevan]

For anyone running a standard K20 LSD or the popular aftermarket helical lsds, has anyone experienced enough cornering g's during circuit racing to fully unload the inside wheel causing the diff to fully unlock?

The reason i ask is i am looking at my options for a helical LSD, namely Mfactory to replace the poor OEM open diff and was wondering if this was experienced by anyone. I can only imagine this happening on a very bumpy track as most DC5's i have seen so far 3 wheel with the inside rear wheel lifting occasionally.

I was tossing up between the Quaife and Mfactory unit with Mfactory so far being my favourite as it is forged and i can get local support should i have any issues, I have yet to hear of anyone in AUS using their diff on the K20 yet though?

[stevan]

bumpity, someone here can surely comment on this ?? I just want clarification that the lock on a helical LSD will only release on very bumpy roads and NOT due to the inside wheel unloading during cornering??

[maracer]

Sorry mate…..I did see this but forgot to reply…
I change mine to the Honda LSD.
Why I went this way and not any of the others. As I did install a second hand one (cheaper), plus the use of Honda MTF just made it easier for me.
(no special gear box oil) It worked well at Winton track day too, took almost 2 seconds of my previous time.
Great on the street too, no more inside wheel spinning it’s tits of at the slightest blip of the throttle.
Hope this helps.



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[stevan]

Sorry mate…..I did see this but forgot to reply…
I change mine to the Honda LSD.
Why I went this way and not any of the others. As I did install a second hand one (cheaper), plus the use of Honda MTF just made it easier for me.
(no special gear box oil) It worked well at Winton track day too, took almost 2 seconds of my previous time.
Great on the street too, no more inside wheel spinning it’s tits of at the slightest blip of the throttle.
Hope this helps.

thanks for the feedback mate, so you never felt the car unlock mid corner or anything like that? I can only image the diff not working when the road is very wet or dampers are overdamped causing the wheels to lose contact and "skip" over bumps. I just want to clarify the operating differences between this and the plate type besides that fact that plate type also locks under deceleration unlike a helical unit.

I was looking at the Mfactory Helical LSD which SHOULD be stronger than oem and the Quaife/Wavertrac unit (claimed by mfactory) as it is hot forged, Australian based support is a big plus too.

[ChargeR]

I have experienced the OEM LSD freewheeling from unloading the inside wheel, and the sudden loss of acceleration is very disconcerting, not to mention slow. My issues stem mostly from too high spring rates and a bumpy track, but I think I might have had the odd occurrence of the inside wheel just spinning from being unloaded so heavily just due to lateral loads. Only on Hoosiers though, never on street tyres.

[stevan]

I have experienced the OEM LSD freewheeling from unloading the inside wheel, and the sudden loss of acceleration is very disconcerting, not to mention slow. My issues stem mostly from too high spring rates and a bumpy track, but I think I might have had the odd occurrence of the inside wheel just spinning from being unloaded so heavily just due to lateral loads. Only on Hoosiers though, never on street tyres.

that is definitely disconcerting, did it cause you to suddenly understeer wide from the loss of traction?? If it takes 275 Hoosiers and 14/28 rates to cause lateral unloading then i am happy with the operation threshold of an aftermarket helical LSD VS a plate type LSD haha.

I suppose you will be changing the oem diff when you get around to your transmission rebuild? Couldn't find anywhere in your thread what clutch you were using?? I was very keen on doing the mfactory LSD, exedy sports organic and a 5.1 FD but i think i will leave the FD for now as thats a pretty hardcore change to make, standard is 4.7 yes??

[ChargeR]

No sudden understeer since the load on the outside tyre decreases when the LSD freewheels, so it doesn't really affect my line through the corner. I think you will be okay with a helical type LSD since as you say it took my big tyres and messed up suspension to really give the OEM one trouble.

I am wary of changing the OEM diff because I am a bit lazy and don't look forward to the increased maintenance of a clutch style differential. I am still using OEM clutch and flywheel. I guess I will change that when I pull the gearbox out, but that probably won't be this year.

Standard FD is 4.7 for both the AUDM Type R and Type S, I think it was only the 02-04 RSX-S that got the 4.4. FD is a very expensive change for a tenuous gain, you might be quicker down a strip or round a circuit but it is heavily dependent on the track. The only thing definite about changing FD is that your left arm will get more of a workout.

[stevan]

No sudden understeer since the load on the outside tyre decreases when the LSD freewheels, so it doesn't really affect my line through the corner. I think you will be okay with a helical type LSD since as you say it took my big tyres and messed up suspension to really give the OEM one trouble.

I am wary of changing the OEM diff because I am a bit lazy and don't look forward to the increased maintenance of a clutch style differential. I am still using OEM clutch and flywheel. I guess I will change that when I pull the gearbox out, but that probably won't be this year.

Standard FD is 4.7 for both the AUDM Type R and Type S, I think it was only the 02-04 RSX-S that got the 4.4. FD is a very expensive change for a tenuous gain, you might be quicker down a strip or round a circuit but it is heavily dependent on the track. The only thing definite about changing FD is that your left arm will get more of a workout.

if you didnt have an LSD what would you choose between the Mfactory and quaife units? I don't like Wavertrac's "hybrid" Helical/plate type LSD so thats not on the shortlist. From my understanding the Quaife and Mfactory have similar operation and Torque bias so the only main difference is that Mfactory claim their unit is lighter and storonger due to it being hot forged, it is also quite a bit cheaper too interestingly.

So the AUD TYPE_S has a 4.7 FD?? ok i was confused as i was reading that USDM TYPE-S all had 4.3 FD so i assumed that only the TypeR in AUS had the 4.7... the 5.1 will give about a 11% increase in Torque compared to stock but first and second will be quite short then, only 3rd and 4th will really benefit.

If that's the case i will leave it then and just do the Clutch and LSD. Its a shame that Timmy had a bad experience with the CC stage 2 clutch as i was pretty sold on giving it a go, some other people on CRSX found that their friction plates sufferrred irregular wear also so im not sure if it stems from an installatiion issue as a lot of people still swear by them overseas. It is also common for the standard CMC to blow using heavier pressure plates so a civic S1 CMC wouldnt be a bad piece of insurance. If only Exedy sold something between their 3puck stage 2 and sports organic kit, that would be perfect!

[EG30]

I was searching for an LSD for a fren's FN2 in Perth while I was in hk and ended up buying a factory torsen LSD from a dc5r.

They are relatively easy to find in Asia due to a good portion of enthusiasts insist on a plate type LSD even for the road. Many factory LSDs saw little action before replaced with plate type LSD for racing from day one also.

Huge improvement in terms of grip, wheelspin much much reduced now according to him. Unless he launches the car over ripple strips, I cant see him losing preload on the inside wheel on his stock-ish car.

[stevan]

I was searching for an LSD for a fren's FN2 in Perth while I was in hk and ended up buying a factory torsen LSD from a dc5r.

They are relatively easy to find in Asia due to a good portion of enthusiasts insist on a plate type LSD even for the road. Many factory LSDs saw little action before replaced with plate type LSD for racing from day one also.

Huge improvement in terms of grip, wheelspin much much reduced now according to him. Unless he launches the car over ripple strips, I cant see him losing preload on the inside wheel on his stock-ish car.

thanks for the info mate! Seeing as though a standard second hand LSD will cost me around $500-600 i may as well spend $680 on an Mfactory for example as it should be much stronger due to the materials used. Either option is much better than a fun killing open-diff

[plAythiNG]

Great info guys!

[ChargeR]

if you didnt have an LSD what would you choose between the Mfactory and quaife units? I don't like Wavertrac's "hybrid" Helical/plate type LSD so thats not on the shortlist. From my understanding the Quaife and Mfactory have similar operation and Torque bias so the only main difference is that Mfactory claim their unit is lighter and storonger due to it being hot forged, it is also quite a bit cheaper too interestingly.

So the AUD TYPE_S has a 4.7 FD?? ok i was confused as i was reading that USDM TYPE-S all had 4.3 FD so i assumed that only the TypeR in AUS had the 4.7... the 5.1 will give about a 11% increase in Torque compared to stock but first and second will be quite short then, only 3rd and 4th will really benefit.

If that's the case i will leave it then and just do the Clutch and LSD. Its a shame that Timmy had a bad experience with the CC stage 2 clutch as i was pretty sold on giving it a go, some other people on CRSX found that their friction plates sufferrred irregular wear also so im not sure if it stems from an installatiion issue as a lot of people still swear by them overseas. It is also common for the standard CMC to blow using heavier pressure plates so a civic S1 CMC wouldnt be a bad piece of insurance. If only Exedy sold something between their 3puck stage 2 and sports organic kit, that would be perfect!

Based on no research whatsoever I would go for a Quaife because they have been around for years and years, make real race parts used all over the world, and they know what they are doing. The M factory unit might be stronger, but since it isn't something simple like a bolt then there are a lot more considerations than ultimate strength of the LSD casing. I think the design, manufacturing process and tolerances will be more significant in determining which unit would fail first rather than the outright tensile strength of the material used. Unless you have 400kW at the wheels and 26" slicks but in that case get a spool.

I have never seen the gear ratios for the AU 05-06 Type S gearbox confirmed (has anyone even pulled one apart?) but I just assumed it was the same as the 05-06 US Type S box which got the updated 4.7 final drive but still has more relaxed ratios than the Type R. Refer to THIS thread.

[stevan]

Based on no research whatsoever I would go for a Quaife because they have been around for years and years, make real race parts used all over the world, and they know what they are doing. The M factory unit might be stronger, but since it isn't something simple like a bolt then there are a lot more considerations than ultimate strength of the LSD casing. I think the design, manufacturing process and tolerances will be more significant in determining which unit would fail first rather than the outright tensile strength of the material used. Unless you have 400kW at the wheels and 26" slicks but in that case get a spool.

I have never seen the gear ratios for the AU 05-06 Type S gearbox confirmed (has anyone even pulled one apart?) but I just assumed it was the same as the 05-06 US Type S box which got the updated 4.7 final drive but still has more relaxed ratios than the Type R. Refer to THIS thread.

Good point Tom, i dont know how many K series LSD's you have looked at but have you ever noticed that the Syncrotech LSD looks exactly like the Mfactory one and caries the same description?? I found this to be a bit strange.

While Quaife does have great brand reputation Lukits01 broke one on his CTR on the quarter mile with an almost standard engine so one must question the real inherent benefit of paying extra, its also not like Mfactory are a rubbish knockoff company (OBX) so its hard to draw conclusions as it is also hard to find someone using their K series diff... Guess i should keep the annoying PM's up on CRSX till i find someone that does

End of the day its about $200 difference between the 2 so if you can find someone that has the Quaife in stock its probably a no brainer, almost.

Also in for someone that knows for sure if the AUD Type-s has the 4.7FD

[lukits01]

wouldn't take my experience as a representation of Quaife quality to be honest, even the best QA system wont pick up the rare lemon in a production line. I mean Quaife are OEM equipment in the Focus RS and Renault Megane
I'm sure those guys know what they're doing.

Suspension can be setup to work with a Torsen diff to minimize unloading of one wheel. So unless you are using super grippy tires that is overpowering the suspension, you'd rarely come up to a situation where one wheel is completely unloaded.

[stevan]

wouldn't take my experience as a representation of Quaife quality to be honest, even the best QA system wont pick up the rare lemon in a production line. I mean Quaife are OEM equipment in the Focus RS and Renault Megane
I'm sure those guys know what they're doing.

Suspension can be setup to work with a Torsen diff to minimize unloading of one wheel. So unless you are using super grippy tires that is overpowering the suspension, you'd rarely come up to a situation where one wheel is completely unloaded.

thanks for the input mate, will have to decide between the two but they both should be great LSD's. Hopefully the compression on my new suspension will keep the tyres in their happy place and on the ground

I have let the idea of changing FD over for now and am looking into what new clutch to buy. Timmy has turned me off CC stage 2 which looked good to me so now its between he exedy organic of exedy stage 2 clutches...