Opinions - DC2R Power Upgrade

[benson]

Oil pump will need to be removed from the engine

[ewendc2r]

I see -- What was the purpose of the modification? (i.e. Why would you need to raise the oil pressure beyond OEM if not increasing the RPM significantly? Or is this a CRV Oil Pump (i.e. Then you do need increased capability).

Also saw a cheap Dry Sump kit with a 5 stage pump lol for B series motors! Around US$1200 which is ridiculously cheap compared to new.. Not for me, but will find it again if someone is interested.

[WhiteDC2]

Try and do everyting at once, ewendc2r, as it will save you a lot of heart ache in the long run. You mentioned that adding ITBs latter on is no big deal, however there are still some things to consider.

I'm running Jenvey 50mm quads on a B18C1 head on a B18C block that's stroked to 2L. The B18C1 head is another cost effective option for a good flowing head without having to tear down your current motor. The head, linke the B18C7, has a water gallery that runs through the intake manifold in stock form. This is the coolant thermostat bypass or heater from memory. The problem is that the Jenvey IM does not have this hole and I had the gallery in the head filled in and I got rid of the heater. This then created the problem of not having a coolant bypass path when the thermostat was closed which was solved by running a -12AN line from the water gallery on the head under the distributor to a port I had welded onto the thermostat housing behind the thermostat.

The ITBs also move the position of your injectors further back in the IM runners. The original injector cut outs in the head had to be filled in to match the new Jenvey IM.

There is also the issue of wiring and vacuum lines. Jenvey usually ships a TPS with their kits and you'll have to splice it into the loom - I used the original TPS wiring but due to the different location I had to pull all the insulation off the loom to relocate the wiring. What I'm trying to say is that this task is much easier to do with the engine out so you can complete the engine wiring loom. I did this while the motor was in the car and it tested my patience for sure.

Due to the new IM you lose your idle control motor, brake master cylinder vacuum, fuel pressure reg vacuum and MAP sensor vacuum.

Idle control can be managed by adjusting the ITBs but if you want to retain the idle control motor (like I did) you need to make up a plate for the idle motor to mount with some carefully drilled holes - one for the engine side of the idle motor and one for the atmosphere side. I then relocated the idle motor to the firewall which also required the wiring to be relocated.

If you want to retain your MAP sensor this is the same deal as above. I bought a new Bosch MAP sensor and mounted it on the firewall and relocated the wiring to suit. I'm currently tuned off TPS as the load varable, so MAP isn't always necessary.

The FPR usually lives on your fuel rail. The Jenvey rail doesn't accomodate for this so it also has to be relocated.

The MAP, idle control motor, FPR and brake master cylinder vacuum feeds all go to a Golden Eagle vacuum manifold which is mounted on the firewall. A vacuum line is run from each IM runner (engine side of the butterfly) to the vacuum manifold. This little vacuum manifold gives you all the vacuum you need for brakes, idle contol etc.

So, there's a bit of work to it.

Like Benny said, I'd recommend building the whole motor. This will allow you to keep your car on the road while you build up the motor you really want. Do the bottom end and make it reliable - there's nothing worse than throwing a rod or spinning a bearing and lunching a perfectly good block or crank (or both!).

Let me know if you need more info on the build or ITBs and I can post some pics etc.

[tinkerbell]

Or is this a CRV Oil Pump .

CRV oil pump = ITR oil pump.

[ewendc2r]

WhiteDC2 thanks for that much appreciated -- 52mm is big, does the mid range suffer? I guess it is a 2L .. I'm looking at 48mm, but in a few months when I've sold my B18CR Head and installed the new one..

Cams -- I've been looking into cams and have got some varied info..

1 - Comments are made that the Toda C developes more power all over the chart than the Toda B but other comments show that the Toda B has stronger mid-range than Toda C but less top end..

2 - Comments are made that the Jun Type 3 is between the Toda B & Toda C, with some tests showing actual greater area under the line than both B's & C's.

3 - Rocket have the M22x Cam which is meant to be a jun 3 killer, but can't find dynos to compare etc ..

Given I don't want to set my rev limited any higher than 9100rpm, and mid range is king, what cam would you buy?

[WhiteDC2]

WhiteDC2 thanks for that much appreciated -- 52mm is big, does the mid range suffer? I guess it is a 2L .. I'm looking at 48mm, but in a few months when I've sold my B18CR Head and installed the new one..

Cams -- I've been looking into cams and have got some varied info..

1 - Comments are made that the Toda C developes more power all over the chart than the Toda B but other comments show that the Toda B has stronger mid-range than Toda C but less top end..

2 - Comments are made that the Jun Type 3 is between the Toda B & Toda C, with some tests showing actual greater area under the line than both B's & C's.

3 - Rocket have the M22x Cam which is meant to be a jun 3 killer, but can't find dynos to compare etc ..

Given I don't want to set my rev limited any higher than 9100rpm, and mid range is king, what cam would you buy?

I'm running 50mm Jenvey throttles and I've seen good results with 52mm Jenveys on a 84mm bore B18C. With mine being a 94mm stroke, mid range is very strong with a very linear power and torque curve. However, with Hondas being Hondas, it's alway better on VTEC and you still aim to keep the car on VTEC on the track. My average RPM around Eastern Creek is ~6000 RPM - so have a think about where you want the bulk of your power. At EC I'd like a shorter 5th to move the revs up and likewise at OP and WP, I'd like 4th to be shorter. So I'm currently trying to source a 96 spec or USDM spec 4th and 5th gear set. Solving issues like this doesn't always have to lie with the motor.

Definitely run Toda C2 cams if you're looking to go Toda in a 2L motor, they're more suited to the application of high compression, bigger capacity and revs. B's are drop-ins for stock B18 bottom ends. I'm actually interested in going for a Toda D spec cam on the inlet to see if I can get a fatter curve.

Never had anything to do with Jun so I can't comment and the BYP twins have had very good result with the USA gear and recommend it. It tends to be a bit more cost effective also. Bottom line is do your research and get the actual specs of the cams. This information will give you a comparison across the range so you'll be able to make an informed decision.

[ewendc2r]

... but as you said, mid range is king (with avg rpm around 6000) -- Based on this, would the Toda B's have better mid range than the C's? (I thought the D's were more of a drag racing cam).. If I don't increase compression off the bat, will the Jun III's still respond well or is that over-camming the motor?

Yeah I'll do transmission down the track when the clutch needs replacing..

By the way, i'll need larger injectors won't I?

[WhiteDC2]

... but as you said, mid range is king (with avg rpm around 6000) -- Based on this, would the Toda B's have better mid range than the C's? (I thought the D's were more of a drag racing cam).. If I don't increase compression off the bat, will the Jun III's still respond well or is that over-camming the motor?

Yeah I'll do transmission down the track when the clutch needs replacing..

By the way, i'll need larger injectors won't I?

You will have less power everywhere with the B's on built motor compared with the C2s - end of story. They're suited to 1.8L stock bottom ends and heads.

Don't now what the Jun's are like - what are the specs?

The Toda D intake cam gives 5 degrees more duration at the same lift over the C2, so it's a matter of testing. I've seen positive results on a 84mm bore B18 with this combo.

I highly recommend building your engine all at once - otherwise B's will be your best bet and then you'll have to sell up and go bigger to reap the benefits of higher compression and head work etc.

Injectors are a must - what fuel are you looking to run? If you go for E85 dont go smaller than 550cc otherwise on 98 440cc is fine. RB26 injectors are a good and cheap swap.

[benson]

1000cc with E85 here!

M22x is one of the best cams we used so far in mild B20 build's. I wouldnt worried so much about cams, rather concentrate on the quality bolt-ons.

Check out some decent headers made in the US like ASP, DTR/SSR, RMF, Hytech, SMSP and etc.

[ewendc2r]

1000cc with E85 here!

M22x is one of the best cams we used so far in mild B20 build's. I wouldnt worried so much about cams, rather concentrate on the quality bolt-ons.

Check out some decent headers made in the US like ASP, DTR/SSR, RMF, Hytech, SMSP and etc.

I'm running a Mugen 4-1 Header and J's Racing Intake -- The Mugen header performs quite well similar to the Toda header .. I'll look into it though -- My header is coming towards end of life, had a look at it when changing the o2 sensor and looks like its had quite a number of rubs / contacts with the road, tapping it sounds very thin.

[ewendc2r]

I've read a few stories about Rocket cams breaking overseas, generally due to poor tune etc but still ... I don't want that happening. Plus I can get the Jun 3's for around $450 (cheap like the budgie).

With regards to the ethanol, its really only going to be beneficial when I ramp up the CR right? I mean, at 11:1 you're hardly taking advantage of the OR. So yeah, I think it'll be tuned for 98RON and thats it, and can readily get it anywhere really.

WhiteDC2 -- I am buying the head now because the opportunity strikes. I can't afford to have the car off the road longer than a weekend at this stage, so thats why I am resisting a full rebuild. I could look at building the bottom end (leaving engine in car and dropping the guts out) but that could be painful plus I doubt I would be able to get the block machined / bored / honed etc while still in the car. Thats why I'll do the head now, and should get reasonable benefits out of it in any case, then when I build the bottom end I can simply throw the head straight on. If I pick up cams cheap enough I don't mind selling them I guess (because I wouldn't lose much) and at this stage I'm still not convinced 150kw - 160kw is enough (as in, maxxing out the chassis / usability) so would hate to buy everything new and then realise its not what I want. The Jun 3's should get me to around 140kw with this head, and that will be enough for a while, until the bottom end is built.

[fatboyz39]

We got about 5-6kw gains everywhere with E85. We chose to run e85 not only for the performance gain, but its tolerance for knocking and its price.

Air flow > compression

[zel05]

E85 isn't very widespread in Qld. I'm still yet to come across it. There might be a few independant servo's that stock it though.

[ewendc2r]

interesting -- i'll look into it.. Don't know much about it / availability, could be interesting..

[WhiteDC2]

1000cc with E85 here!

Haha yeah, my 440cc injectors are running at over 80% duty cycle with 90psi fuel pressure

WhiteDC2 -- I am buying the head now because the opportunity strikes. I can't afford to have the car off the road longer than a weekend at this stage, so thats why I am resisting a full rebuild. I could look at building the bottom end (leaving engine in car and dropping the guts out) but that could be painful plus I doubt I would be able to get the block machined / bored / honed etc while still in the car. Thats why I'll do the head now, and should get reasonable benefits out of it in any case, then when I build the bottom end I can simply throw the head straight on. If I pick up cams cheap enough I don't mind selling them I guess (because I wouldn't lose much) and at this stage I'm still not convinced 150kw - 160kw is enough (as in, maxxing out the chassis / usability) so would hate to buy everything new and then realise its not what I want. The Jun 3's should get me to around 140kw with this head, and that will be enough for a while, until the bottom end is built.

That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you - buy your B20 bottom end and B16/18C1 head and build the motor. You're kidding yourself if you think you can do any amount of work like this in under a weekend. Having a spare motor is always handy.

If you're still thinking of going forced down the track leave the ITB's and change your pistons should the need arise. Just remember the current record holding car here in the NSW SS series has around 160fwkw - it's still a decent amount of power. Don't expect too much more than 160fwkw out of a B series - it's pretty much what all of us are running down here.