Opinions - DC2R Power Upgrade

[ewendc2r]

Ok -- I've lined up a b16 Alaniz Head with Competition Porting and running gear for US$1250, a bargain really.. These are reputed to be 'the best of the best' in terms of honda heads and gains over in the states.

Comes with .5mm stainless steel exhaust valves
titanium retainers + springs

In terms of a non-drag application these are meant to be the bees knees and retain good mid-range..

Anywho -- Car is in getting tuned now, will post up results.

[felixR]

pics ewen!

[ewendc2r]

lol -- my car isn't worth pics yet, need to get a panel replaced lol.
Wow -- just saw a B20 (US) with 250whp, thats incredible. 180kw+ !! Is there something different about the way we dyno? Thats a massive specific output / L.

[tinkerbell]

ummmmm:

http://www.ipgparts.com/race-parts-6...block-292.html

[ewendc2r]

That would be about 250@wheels wouldn't it? (not 300hp @ wheels surely).. Thats crazy, but thats a true race motor, I wouldn't think it'd be reliable / last long surely?

I imagine that motor would be peaky as all hell too -- I'm looking for a bit of midrange punch, something like the Pro1's / Toda B / Jun 3 I think .. Toda C is a bit much at this stage with stock bottom end I think. What is your opinion?

[ChargeR]

lol -- my car isn't worth pics yet, need to get a panel replaced lol.
Wow -- just saw a B20 (US) with 250whp, thats incredible. 180kw+ !! Is there something different about the way we dyno? Thats a massive specific output / L.

Yeah US dynos seem to read very differently to Australian ones, for example a stock K20A2 seems to make around 170hp at the wheels there, whereas here a stock DC5R might make 145 or 150 whp.

[tinkerbell]

whp = wheel HP

dynos over there are abt 15-20% higher than ours (some say around ~17%)

you couldnt use that block for circuit - it is designed for drag, that is why it is taken out to 86.5mm... cooling would be major issue...

if you want mid-range - B20 with ITB's is good.

a basic 10.2:1 B20VTEC = $2000

B20B8 block - 600
your head - free
ARP studs and bolts - 250
headagsket - 120
B18C water pump - 120
B18C timing belt - 60
VTEC oil line - 80
VRS gasket kit - 200
piston flycut - 150
head work - 150 (full rebuild 350+)

this would goto maybe 115-120kw

add 500 for 84mm RS machince 11.5:1 pistons
add 250 for bore hone (more if you oversize the pistons)
add 600 for Manley rods (+ 150 for bearings)

this would be getting up to 130ish

add ITBs and you would be on your way to 140+

[DC2RKID]

wow thats alot of money for such lil power gain :S boosting it might end up been a better option after all lol

[ewendc2r]

I would be better off simply getting this head and ITB's on current motor, should be good for around 140kw apparently. My problem is that what if 140kw is not enough (which is likely to be the case after a little while)? You've already spent a shit load of money getting the motor to a respectable output and then have to pretty much ditch / sell what you've done and start over (although I can use the head..)


-- Picked up the car. Its tuned! Well kind of..

Its running good afr's (12.5:1) approx but suffers some hesitation / choking when getting off the throttle (I've read about this problem and how its fixed).

Ended up with 121kw and 162nm with massive midrange gains. Gained around 13kw (about 20%!)at 5500rpm and you can definitely feel it. Crossover is around 4800rpm.

The initial pull showed AFR's in the 9:1 - 10:1 range lol -- no wonder I was choking on fumes of a morning starting the car in the garage.

[geeang]

I would be better off simply getting this head and ITB's on current motor, should be good for around 140kw apparently. My problem is that what if 140kw is not enough (which is likely to be the case after a little while)? You've already spent a shit load of money getting the motor to a respectable output and then have to pretty much ditch / sell what you've done and start over (although I can use the head..)


-- Picked up the car. Its tuned! Well kind of..

Its running good afr's (12.5:1) approx but suffers some hesitation / choking when getting off the throttle (I've read about this problem and how its fixed).

Ended up with 121kw and 162nm with massive midrange gains. Gained around 13kw (about 20%!)at 5500rpm and you can definitely feel it. Crossover is around 4800rpm.

The initial pull showed AFR's in the 9:1 - 10:1 range lol -- no wonder I was choking on fumes of a morning starting the car in the garage.

Sounds exactly like my car, struggled to start in the mornings and always got light-headed from the fumes.

After a tune I got 124.4kw and 166nm with huge midrange gains peaking at 20kw atw @ 6000rpm.

I'd go with a mildly-built B20 bottom end (<$4500), should provide a decent bump in torque for anything you need.

[ewendc2r]

yeah -- I can tell the tune has more to go, it was this guys first time tuning a honda and using hondata and to throw a spanner in the work my wideband plx was causing voltage spikes through the cpu (long story) and the afr was changing all over the place rich (talking sub 9.5:1) even though he just had it fine at 12.5:1 a second ago... That wasted two hours unfortunately and then that damn autotune function was changing his values so took another 45 mins to stop that (only way I figured was to reduce the changes etc in autotune setting to 0%). Only took him an hour or so after that, its not the smoothest tune but its a damn sight better than what it was.

Next time i might fly someone up for it (if I get the head because I want it done absolutely right) & try and hire the dyno for half a day.

Also was thinking -- If I get ITB's I can sell:

Throttle Body
Intake Manifold
J's Racing CF Intake

I'd probably get bloody close to the cost of the ITBs -- what do you think those items are worth? (well, the throttle body and manifold)... ?

Mmmm... I've got the bug now, oh shit.

[benson]

Seems like you got a brain. Itb's setup isnt that expensive many would think. Your stock set-up can easily fetch 700 bucks. Add another 600-700bucks and get yourself a set of itb's.

Remember its the combination of parts to make everything work well. Big is not always the best way to go.

I wouldnt do anything until you do a better bottom end. Why waste all this moeny to put on another head with little gain cause of a lacking bottom end? If your going to build a motor, do both head and bottom end, or at least do bottom end first then head.

And geerang is on the money, a mild b20 bottom end set-up will certainly make things more interesting.

[ewendc2r]

Benson -- Hah thanks I think? Yeah -- I'll order the parts this week. ARRRGGH (More money lol, but its too good to go past). I figure that I can get quite reasonable gains from this package (and this is a great opportunity for a alaniz head) for the time being and when the bottom end needs working (rings or whatever) i'll build a B20 bottom end for the head to go on (after some machining and CC work).

ITB - Looking at 45mm with quite long trumpets -- On the right path? Tapered design etc? Found a set of Jenvey Twin body for $1000 but wondering why the twin bodys are so much cheaper than the quad setup.

So I also need to get:

Timing Belt (due anyway) -- Is Toda absolutely necessary or is there another brand for much cheaper that is just as good? I'm not going above 9100rpm max -- Is the OEM belt ok for this or is it more the heavy springs that effects the belt?

Cam Gears -- Lighter is better, anyone suggest the best for the job? Toda springs to mind .. Spoon? Will look around for 2nd hand fairly new.

Oil Pump should be ok at 9000rpm, Water Pump should be ok too .. Jun 3 peak power is around 9000rpm anyhow I've found.

With the ITB setup -- What else do I need, I mean, I've read about a vacuum box to help set idle etc and I know some kits need a TPS sensor adaptor plate.. fuel rail comes with it, is there anything else? I feel like I am missing something ..

[benson]

ITB 45mm, is a little too small if your going bigger capacity, hence why i said do the bottom end then the head. Jenvey's are good itbs, send them a email with your set-up and see what they recommend

Timing Belt, some people swear by Toda belts but OEM is more than fine. We always run and use OEM and rev it to 9400rpms at one stage. See's constant 9000rpm the circuit. OEM is the best belt!

We custom modified all our oil pump for more constant and higher pressures throughout the rev range. Its all done in-house

[ewendc2r]

Ok thanks for that -- To try and keep costs reasonable I'm going to get the head first and the itbs later (because the deal on the ITB's isn't a show stopper). But I am assuming the stock Manifold and throttle body will be a bottle neck, might have to just get the throttle body bored out with a taper (65 - 68) -- should get me across the line for the time being, no point spending too much on the intake if its getting repaced.

Benson -- Does that involve porting the housing? I've heard of something like that done on high performance motors. Moreso I think it was to reduce parasitic drag (ie. oil pump didn't work as hard) on the motor and to increase power at the wheels.

Can people port match while engine is in vehicle? Or does it need to be done at point of build? (i.e. head out of car?)