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    #31
    interesting reading..im guessing you could net similar results by using more negative camber and leaving the caster alone? (since the main advantage of increased caster is increased dynamic negative camber during the turn).
    "What's the point of racing a car that doesn't look cool?" - Nakai-san, RWB

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      #32
      szy, you're basically spot on. We would be better off using more static camber than trying to achieve levels of caster that would net us any useful gains (in terms of dynamic camber), whilst at the same time throwing away Honda's hard work to achieve zero bump steer.

      Even with the UCA swap you still only have less than half the caster than a standard BMW 3-series runs from factory, for instance...
      | 1991 Formula Red NSX | 1999 CW DC2R #00-193 | 2013 Black CBR1000RR

      "And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high." - Ayrton Senna

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        #33
        The reason why castor is at times more desirable than camber is because of its dynamic nature.

        If you were just to add, for example, -4.5degrees of camber, your tyre contact patch will be significantly affected, thus reducing your acceleration and braking capacities.

        That being said, a certain amount of camber is healthy but too much or too little can also be detrimental.
        Official ClubITR Sponsor: www.autosphere.com.au - For all your maintenance, oils and track needs.

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          #34
          Originally posted by szymonsta View Post
          interesting reading..im guessing you could net similar results by using more negative camber and leaving the caster alone? (since the main advantage of increased caster is increased dynamic negative camber during the turn).
          yes, very similar results indeed...

          however, static camber increases tyre wear - that is why castor increase is seen as "free" camber increase.

          see...

          the negatives of bump steer changes are felt most on a bumpy straight road or while braking/booting suddenly during a corner... i thought? in rapid comp/rebound

          however, the positives of increased castor is the increased dynamic camber that increases as steering input increases... isn't it? like szy says...

          yes, *marginal* performance increase at most on the dc2, but the principle is sound. it improves the immediacy of the chassis, so why not?

          i guess my experience with this swap that relates only to aggressive track prepped cars, my perspective must certainly be tainted...

          so i apologise for going on about it, but i really am interested in all this might even do the measures tomorrow...
          ... retired/

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            #35
            Originally posted by mugsee View Post
            The reason why castor is at times more desirable than camber is because of its dynamic nature.
            took wayy too long to edit my post, lol, you beat me
            ... retired/

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              #36
              Originally posted by mugsee View Post
              The reason why castor is at times more desirable than camber is because of its dynamic nature.

              If you were just to add, for example, -4.5degrees of camber, your tyre contact patch will be significantly affected, thus reducing your acceleration and braking capacities.

              That being said, a certain amount of camber is healthy but too much or too little can also be detrimental.
              You're right in principle,

              but do you know how much actual camber is added with +5deg of caster at normal steering angles on the track? It is about 1/5th of f**k all. Especially in high speed corners where the actual amount of steering lock is minimal - ie EC turn 1...
              | 1991 Formula Red NSX | 1999 CW DC2R #00-193 | 2013 Black CBR1000RR

              "And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high." - Ayrton Senna

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                #37
                and do you know what it is like in a round-about or a 15 km/h u turn?
                ... retired/

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by mugsee View Post
                  The reason why castor is at times more desirable than camber is because of its dynamic nature.

                  If you were just to add, for example, -4.5degrees of camber, your tyre contact patch will be significantly affected, thus reducing your acceleration and braking capacities.
                  This man is factually correct. Camber does get you the ladies though.

                  Originally posted by freakygeek View Post
                  You're right in principle,

                  but do you know how much actual camber is added with +5deg of caster at normal steering angles on the track? It is about 1/5th of f**k all. Especially in high speed corners where the actual amount of steering lock is minimal - ie EC turn 1...
                  However I think that this man truly knows the score.

                  The camber gained from the amounts of castor you are going to be able to achieve on a DC2 Integra is negligible. Tinkerbell, any improvements you felt in steering feel or turn in could have been caused by damn well anything, even the strange toe changes during compression from you swapping the upper control arms, because you certainly did not gain any significant amount of outside wheel negative camber at the levels of steering movement you would have been using.

                  Originally posted by freakygeek View Post
                  szy, you're basically spot on. We would be better off using more static camber than trying to achieve levels of caster that would net us any useful gains (in terms of dynamic camber), whilst at the same time throwing away Honda's hard work to achieve zero bump steer.
                  I agree. Especially considering that you DC2 guys can get away with much less static camber since you have much more favourable camber gain under suspension compression.
                  Last edited by ChargeR; 16-08-08, 12:43 AM.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by ChargeR View Post
                    Tinkerbell, any improvements you felt in steering feel or turn in could have been caused by damn well anything, even the strange toe changes during compression from you swapping the upper control arms, because you certainly did not gain any significant amount of outside wheel negative camber at the levels of steering movement you would have been using..
                    could be placebo effect too?
                    ... retired/

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by tinkerbell View Post
                      could be placebo effect too?
                      Yeah. And if the swap felt better and you went faster who cares? The race track does not lie, people merely misinterpret it.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by mugsee View Post
                        The reason why castor is at times more desirable than camber is because of its dynamic nature.

                        If you were just to add, for example, -4.5degrees of camber, your tyre contact patch will be significantly affected, thus reducing your acceleration and braking capacities.

                        That being said, a certain amount of camber is healthy but too much or too little can also be detrimental.
                        absolutely i agree. like tinks said the caster alows, if you like, 'extra camber but only when you need it like when youre turning' effect, without the negatives of negative camber in streight-line stability, streight line traction and braking (though with less than 3.5deg negative i personally think these side-effects are near-negligeable. although with my setup the front does 'wander' a bit under hard-braking eg from 180km/h+ to 40-ish, but thats in part the toe-out, as well as the camber).

                        i would say that in the case of the dc2R, my personal preference is to dial in a little extra negative camber and leave the minimal caster as standard.
                        "What's the point of racing a car that doesn't look cool?" - Nakai-san, RWB

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by ChargeR View Post

                          ....Especially considering that you DC2 guys can get away with much less static camber since you have much more favourable camber gain under suspension compression....
                          i wonder about excessive lowering and this statement..

                          im sure that in standard-suspension, or well-set-up coilover instance you are absolutely correct, and under compression there is favourable camber gain.
                          however i wonder if excessive lowering can cause reversal of this? as well as a rise in the roll-center?
                          anyone care to explain this to me?

                          ps very interesting topic! its nice to be able to discuss stuff like this on a forum. not many places out there like clubITR. feel the love.
                          "What's the point of racing a car that doesn't look cool?" - Nakai-san, RWB

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                            #43
                            my 2 cents.


                            i have EG civic , with the upper control arms swapped L/R.
                            I also have power steering removed , a LSD powered by a b18c7. car is lowered on n+ and straight alignment front/rear.
                            Car goes thru various forms of road , i am a learning driver but i havent experienced any bump steer in normal or excess conditions. Perhaps a sudded dip into a l/r corner may unsettle the car but overall its still quite predictable even on the limit.
                            All i know is swapping hte upper arms combined with the rest has improved handling.

                            I had the whiteline kit on a previous car , felt a fair chunk better than the above but like all things whiteline it failed and snapped one large bolt

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by freakygeek View Post
                              You're right in principle,

                              but do you know how much actual camber is added with +5deg of caster at normal steering angles on the track? It is about 1/5th of f**k all. Especially in high speed corners where the actual amount of steering lock is minimal - ie EC turn 1...
                              I completely agree that a couple of degrees of castor equates to sfa camber during your average corner on the track (DC2 and DC5), however every little bit helps. Also, Tinkerbells comment "it improves the immediacy of the chassis" strikes a chime with me and also adds to why camber is desirable.

                              Originally posted by ChargeR View Post
                              Yeah. And if the swap felt better and you went faster who cares? The race track does not lie, people merely misinterpret it.
                              QFT. IMO, even if the change doesn't make you any faster but you like the way the car feels, then it is still a worth while modification.
                              Official ClubITR Sponsor: www.autosphere.com.au - For all your maintenance, oils and track needs.

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by mugsee View Post
                                Also, Tinkerbells comment "it improves the immediacy of the chassis" strikes a chime with me and also adds to why camber is desirable.
                                yes, my comment was an elaborate and less blokey way of saying "oversteer"

                                which is a slightly quicker way around a race track than via an understeering car...
                                ... retired/

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