Mythbusting replicas, copies, knock-offs

[Apu]

I've had a number of conversations in the past 12-18 months with a variety of people and realise how little some people know about the industry.

A lot of people know about the "JDM brands" but very few really know or understand the JDM culture. I don't profess to know everything but I've been into cars a long time, and owned my first car in 1992 and have seen first had the car culture in Australia and SE Asia having owned cars in Australia, Singapore and Malaysia.

I'll leave you to research the JDM culture bit on your own, but in essence, it's really grassroots stuff.

I’ve had debates with people about knock-off wheels (Rota copping the worst) and when I started the distributorship for Works Engineering, I faced the same niggles about replicas, copies, etc.

So let’s start with wheels. My favourite is the “Rota knocked off Watanabe / Rotas aren’t original so they are rip off merchants”…and I’ll point out that I have no affiliation whatsoever with Rota. What I ask you to do is Google Minilite, Tecnomagnesio, Cromodora. These wheels came out a decade before the Watanabes. So…who copied whom?

Another interesting example are Enkei RPF1s because they’re so cool and Japanese, etc etc and bloody Konig ripped them off. Check this out http://www.yhi.com.sg/Pdts_manufacture.html

So it surprises me that how many people seem to think that the Japanese brands manufacture all their own product or are the originators of their own design and so JDM is all original, etc etc. Sure there are some brands that have reasonably large (but in real world business terms are still small).

HKS as an example has about 200 people. http://translate.googleusercontent.c...MVjNXTDcONSbEQ

Toda is a company of about 40 people http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/corp/corp.html.

Draw your own conclusions from that. Suffice to say, like many industries, many of the manufacturers Works Engineering uses also manufacture for other brands.

So...I hope this helps some people understand how most of the industry works, and dispel some of the myths and misconceptions that are so prevalent.

[Jax-DC5R]

i have to agree ^ in one way a lot of people just want the best of the best brand names used on the car so its all "JDM" rather then the products that will do the trick for less $$ or even a product they prefer but isn't as highly regarded on the forums or amongst their mates. these days its a matter of what 'should' and shouldn't go on the car rather what the owner wants so most people feel obligated to only put the most expensive jdm products into their cars worrying about what people might say at meets ect..

[fr4n]

most people hate rota not because theyre knock-offs, but because they arent jdm for the sake of being jdm cos racecar. no rep points, self-flattery when you know theyre not "works" or "volks" brah.

get my drift?

[T-BaGGeR]

i have to agree ^ in one way a lot of people just want the best of the best brand names used on the car so its all "JDM" rather then the products that will do the trick for less $$ or even a product they prefer but isn't as highly regarded on the forums or amongst their mates. these days its a matter of what 'should' and shouldn't go on the car rather what the owner wants so most people feel obligated to only put the most expensive jdm products into their cars worrying about what people might say at meets ect..

Building cars for your peers. That is a really sad story.

[Apu]

Thanks for responding guys.

So what you're saying is there are brand-snobs who are anti-Rota. I get that. By the same token, I wouldn't knock the "JDM brands" because they make beautifully finished stuff.

I've been through the branded phase with both Japanese and Euro cars...and I'd hit the brakes everytime I saw a pothole. 20+ years of car ownership later...I don't want to pullover and check my wheels if I hit a pothole (having dented and cracked a number of rims before).

So there's the functional vs appearance position an owner can take - and to each his own. I appreciate the all-about-appearance / hardparking scene...they're beautiful to look at, but I bought my MX5 and Integra both as daily drivers and to go to the track (I still think I'm crazy for respraying them...)

That said, the point I am making here is to raise awareness of what the industry is like if you just scratch below the veneer - or paintwork as it were

So how many didn't know the manufacturing story? Or assumed that the Japanese (or American) manufacturers really made ALL their product?

[ChargeR]

Watanabe knock off wheel designs. No doubt about it. So do many other brands, SSR, Work etc. but there is only a select few that build their core business around lookalike wheels. So it's a bit of a stretch to compare Watanabe to Rota.

I agree with your post in the most part though Apu, people worry too much about where things are manufactured and don't appreciate the manufacturing partnerships that exist. For example if you took a close look at a Toda or Mugen clutch I suspect you'd find it was made by Exedy or someone similar, these small companies simply don't have the resources to manufacture such things.

The same concept applies to wheels, as in the example you gave of Enkei/Konig. Similarly there are not that many companies that have the capability to make a forged wheel akin to Rays so if you buy such a wheel you can be sure it only came from one of a handful of places.

most people hate rota not because theyre knock-offs, but because they arent jdm for the sake of being jdm cos racecar. no rep points, self-flattery when you know theyre not "works" or "volks" brah.

get my drift?

Have you done a survey to decide this?

Building cars for your peers. That is a really sad story.

+1.

[Jax-DC5R]

Building cars for your peers. That is a really sad story.

what exactly do you mean by this?

[Apu]

No kidding about Rays! I've seen some wheels I'd buy to make a coffee table with.

Hmm...renovations coming up. I wonder...

[ggwpty]

what exactly do you mean by this?

Probably that some people just modify their car for the sake of getting attention/compliments/approval/whatever/ from other people

[Jax-DC5R]

Probably that some people just modify their car for the sake of getting attention/compliments/approval/whatever/ from other people

yea, well thats imo anyway, think we would see so much more unique results if there was less critisim from people and more open mindedness

[Apu]

...and that's part of what the original JDM culture was about

[Kin]

I thought the issue for things like Rota vs Rays is not the design but quality?

How the wheel is made/weight etc?

Looks the same from the outside but different inside?

[fr4n]

Watanabe knock off wheel designs. No doubt about it. So do many other brands, SSR, Work etc. but there is only a select few that build their core business around lookalike wheels. So it's a bit of a stretch to compare Watanabe to Rota.

I agree with your post in the most part though Apu, people worry too much about where things are manufactured and don't appreciate the manufacturing partnerships that exist. For example if you took a close look at a Toda or Mugen clutch I suspect you'd find it was made by Exedy or someone similar, these small companies simply don't have the resources to manufacture such things.

The same concept applies to wheels, as in the example you gave of Enkei/Konig. Similarly there are not that many companies that have the capability to make a forged wheel akin to Rays so if you buy such a wheel you can be sure it only came from one of a handful of places.



Have you done a survey to decide this?



+1.

what i said is basically the same thing as what you just +1 too.

just in more detail, revealing the inner machinations of narcissistic car owners

[T-BaGGeR]

Probably that some people just modify their car for the sake of getting attention/compliments/approval/whatever/ from other people

Exactly. I'll give you an example, I participated in the Honda Nationals and placed in my category, I haven't seen one picture of my car on here or ozhonda from that day. It's very stock looking apart from a set of wheels (I normally ride on stockies on the street)

Just shows how much this culture is based around appearance and name bands

[Apu]

From what I see and hear, Rotas were knocked for the design. They also copped some flak for "breakage" but I don't believe that was due to poor quality.

Let's put it this way, if you've paid $4000 for your set of wheels, you won't thrash them like you would a set of Rotas right? A lot of Rotas were punished as they were used by drifters.

Anyone see Ken Block's latest video? He busted up a couple of wheels! Any wheel will break, but my logic is that I'd rather have the wheel break in a small incident RATHER than survive and transmit all that energy into my suspension arms, CV joint, subframe.

But yes, you can't compare a cheaper wheel to a more expensive forged wheel. Different manufacturing process. That said, a well made cast wheel can be better than a poorly forged one. And yes, I've seen Rotas chip and flake...so finishing quality as well.

Anyway, the point I was making about Rotas was around design. Hence the reference to Watanabe / Tecnomagnesio / Cromodora etc. Comparing cast vs forged and price vs quality is another argument.

The design question also ties in to a clarification I made on the Facebook page about the Works Engineering carbon intakes.